OK, the four in hand is doing really well. I’m doing OK at the reinsmanship but… I’m not getting the four in hand whip AT ALL. Seems ridiculously long. How long should the lash be???
Seems like handling this thing must be like fly fishing. How could I ever use it in the woods?
Dick
The late Leslie K. said said it should be long enough to flick off a fly from the ear of a leader. So I’d guess comparing it to fly fishing is rather … appropriate! :lol::lol:
You try to avoid situations where you need to use it in the woods! 
:lol:
Dick, I have no experience with driving a four or using a whip with a lash tha long but I do think you and I drive in some similar heavy, brushy woods. I don’t see how you could possibly use a whip with that long of a lash in places like that. When I’m in the deep Florida woods I forget about using the whip and rely on my reins and voice to guide my horses. When crowded from all sides and from above by woodsy ‘stuff’ I just choke up on the whip handle a couple of feet to keep it from getting tangled up and carry on until we get to a place with a little more breathing room. Isn’t it fun? :winkgrin:
Karen
Obviously, Dick, Thomas does not know where you drive!!! :no: Remember he drives in open fields and roads, not the scrub wood trails you practice on. :lol:
I have seen many of the 4 in hands on marathon have their whip lashes all pulled up about the stick of the whip. ??
[QUOTE=Cartfall;3082934]
Obviously, Dick, Thomas does not know where you drive!!! :no: Remember he drives in open fields and roads, not the scrub wood trails you practice on. :lol:
I have seen many of the 4 in hands on marathon have their whip lashes all pulled up about the stick of the whip. ??[/QUOTE]
Most of the CDE Fours have their long lash tied down to the stick. This prevents lash from EVER coming off the stick at a bad time. Whip is useless for the Leaders, you might be able to poke the Wheelers if needed. Often you have little time for whip work in Marathon, especially in Hazards.
The more Traditionally trained Drivers will furl their long lash about the stick with a shake of the hand. Looks EASY!! I bet Thomas can furl up a long lash without even thinking about it, much practice.
There is a bit of knowing the right shake, then practicing A LOT to getting the lash up correctly. The Coachmen of the past kept the lash out of the way with this furling method. One of the reasons Holly whips are so popular in tradition. Those knobby lumps help keep the lash from unwinding, sliding down the stick. Old Holly whips have numerous lumps, while new whips are much less lumpy, don’t work as well. I am more used to fiberglass sticks, find them more flexible than wooden sticks. Plus I don’t usually cry when they get bumped or broken.
I am here to tell you, a lash tied to the stick WON’T aid you when the Leader gives you the raspberries!! Fours or Tandem or more out there. Even the most dependable horse will need that touch now and again when they get a brain hiccup.
Driver has to learn how to furl the lash, when to put the stick down over the Wheelers back to prevent catching whip in the surrounding brush. As you said, sometimes that whip is just useless in some situations. Dick may have some advantage in ponies. They need a shorter stick length, so that doesn’t stick up as high to catch on things.
Husband in the high Tandem cart out driving, caught his lash in a tree branch and lost the whip, 6ft stick, long lash. I COULD NOT reach the handle from the ground!! Of course laughing so hard badly impeded my jumping ability. He had to come back around so I could stand in the cart, still just barely caught the stick to pull it down while laughing at our difficulties.
Lots of practice involved in getting the lash to go where you want it, and landing with the amount of “touch” you desire on the equine. Flicking touch, like flicking off some dust on your coat, seems to be the most effective amount for our experienced horses. Touch just to remind them they are being directed, not sightseeing. Plus you usually don’t want the crack noise at the end of sending the lash out. Have to learn the control needed, strength behind the swing to be most effective.
I know husband “killed” a couple bales of straw, flicking them to shreds in practice. We closed the barn doors so the neighbors going by couldn’t see him whipping the bales in the barn aisle. They already think we are “really different”.
He set up the reinboard to use in conjunction with whip practice. Better to fumble without jerking horses.
With Dick’s Randem, he may have the same lash length to send out to Leader, as the horse Fours use. Have to build up his arm with his shorter stick whip!!
There are those telescoping whips to check out! 6ft stick, shoots out to 12ft!! Pretty wild when I first saw them in action. I got one as a joke, husband didn’t like it though.
We will be looking forward to seeing some after-practice, photos of the furled whiplash!
[QUOTE=Cartfall;3082934]
Obviously, Dick, Thomas does not know where you drive!!! :no: Remember he drives in open fields and roads, not the scrub wood trails you practice on. :lol:[/QUOTE] Not at all. I take mine for a blast in the woods regularly. I spend most of my time bent double because of the low hanging branches on trees - its a great way to get wiped out of a carriage and I sure as heck can’t keep my whip in the whip holder, yet alone use it.
apt time to post a few piccys thomas of your 4 in hand
as you know i just love those photos–
can i ask- do you mean you dont use the whip holder or dont use the whip
if riding a horse i dont know i take a whip but dont use it-- if on bonnie i dont bother with a whip as dont need one
i presuming horses are well schooled so have the whip but dont bother using it
can i also ask- when would you use a whip holder i only thought that was for use when the whip is not in use-- ie resting or standing as grooms up in front of horse holding the bit face on with both hands
I don’t use the whip holder. And its rare that I use the whip come to that, but I do always have it in my hand.
I’ll have to have a look see if I’ve any photos taken from the carriage. If not, I’m taking a team out tomorrow so I’ll try to remember to take the camera.
The OP needs to have a look at Howletts Driving Instruction book. There’s about 20 pages of how to handle a team’s whip.
I can post some extracts from that if you wish.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3085476]
I don’t use the whip holder. And its rare that I use the whip come to that, but I do always have it in my hand.
I’ll have to have a look see if I’ve any photos taken from the carriage. If not, I’m taking a team out tomorrow so I’ll try to remember to take the camera.
The OP needs to have a look at Howletts Driving Instruction book. There’s about 20 pages of how to handle a team’s whip.
I can post some extracts from that if you wish.[/QUOTE]
Thomas…could you please post some extracts from the book on how to properly handle a whip? When doing ladies driving classes, I carry a whip, need to get a lighter one, so if you know of a great place to order please let me know.
However, when I am only out exercising Smoke, I don’t carry the whip in my hand at all, but concentrate more on driving. If I use it is there and I can easily get it but she doesn’t often need it, if at all. Now, when were trotting smartly up a hill and she gets it into her Percheron mind that she is tired she does get a tap on that fanny and a growl from me. She KNOWS she is strong enough to continue to trot until I tell her otherwise, it is all laziness. Once we have been working for a few weeks she is right as rain.
[QUOTE=Belplosh;3086291]
When doing ladies driving classes, I carry a whip, need to get a lighter one, so if you know of a great place to order please let me know.
However, when I am only out exercising Smoke, I don’t carry the whip in my hand at all, but concentrate more on driving. If I use it is there and I can easily get it but she doesn’t often need it, if at all. Now, when were trotting smartly up a hill and she gets it into her Percheron mind that she is tired she does get a tap on that fanny and a growl from me. She KNOWS she is strong enough to continue to trot until I tell her otherwise, it is all laziness. Once we have been working for a few weeks she is right as rain.[/QUOTE]
A couple of things here–
you can find a whip from any number of vendors. But personally I want to feel the whip in my hand before I buy it. I purchased a decent whip, nothing special, just decent enough to look nice enough for presentation and pleasure shows for about 40 dollars. It is nicely balanced and light enough for my arthritic hands. I always have the whip in my hand when I drive.
The whip is used mostly to move the horse or bend the horse like you would with your leg. I never use my whip to move my horse out. He responds to my voice and the intensity of my voice.
I would strongly urge you to learn to drive with the whip in you hand at all times. Instead of pulling your horse around corners with the reins, you tickle his inside rib cage to get him to bend into a corner along with half halts and use of the outside reins.
Try Claudette of Country Carriages USA, Harvey of Journey’s end carriages just to name a few. I am sure Smuckers has whips but imagine they are really expensive. Driving Essentials also. You can get a decent whip without havint to get a second mortgage.
Good luck
Whip prices at Smuckers and Driving Essentials aren’t that much different than Country Carriages or Journey’s End or most other places come to that - at least for the same whip. Smuckers serves the Amish community as well as “the English” (everyone else) so there are always a selection of inexpensive whips on hand. Not to say its the type of whip you want, but they are there.
Its always best to learn to drive correctly with your whip and do it every time - otherwise you end up having to unlearn your bad habits while trying to learn good ones and it takes MUCH longer to get comfortable driving with a whip. Ask me how I know this :yes:
[QUOTE=goodhors;3083127]
Most of the CDE Fours have their long lash tied down to the stick. .[/QUOTE] :eek: sacre bleu. What is the world coming to! :eek:
The more Traditionally trained Drivers will furl their long lash about the stick with a shake of the hand. Looks EASY!! I bet Thomas can furl up a long lash without even thinking about it, much practice.
:yes:
I teach all my pupils how to use the whip properly and that includes how to furl it and hold it. This comes AFTER rein handling though… I work on the principle that I’ll get them “hooked” first. :winkgrin:
Then move on to the complexities of handling the whip absolutely correctly.
One of the reasons Holly whips are so popular in tradition. Those knobby lumps help keep the lash from unwinding, sliding down the stick. Old Holly whips have numerous lumps, while new whips are much less lumpy, don’t work as well.
I’ve gathered quite a collection of antique holly whips and for all combinations. They’re absolutely sublimely balanced and as such they’re a delight to use: having no “weight” at all in your hand, they just just sit perfectly in the hand.
I inherited some from my mother and from the elderly coachman who first taught me to drive and went on to just buying them whenever they came up at Auction (same as I also did with original livery and traditional top hats.)
Nowadays a good antique holly whip by one of the quality English Manufacturers e.g. G. Holland, will sell for £350 to £450 ($700 to $900)
I am more used to fiberglass sticks, find them more flexible than wooden sticks. Plus I don’t usually cry when they get bumped or broken.
See my other posting about what my grandson did to my favourite whip! Its actually VERY hard to get traditional whips repaired in the traditional manner. I’m limited to a choice of one provider and its costly!!
I am here to tell you, a lash tied to the stick WON’T aid you when the Leader gives you the raspberries!!
I must admit to not even seeing the point of taking it if you’re going to do that.
Husband in the high Tandem cart out driving, caught his lash in a tree branch and lost the whip, 6ft stick, long lash. I COULD NOT reach the handle from the ground!! Of course laughing so hard badly impeded my jumping ability.
:lol:
My funny “whip story” also involves a tree branch…
I had a young pair of my own and permission from the Duke of Roxburgh to drive them at Floors Castle. (They were being acclimatised to the whole experience of different venue and travelling etc etc) I also decided this particular day to take a couple of relatively new (to driving) grooms with me. Everyone who’s ever taken a driving turnout anywhere will know what a huge exercise in logistics that is. So even though we were just transporting them just 15 miles up the road everything had to be remembered.
Anyway we got there and … no whip!! So I said don’t worry I’ll manage without. :no:
The pair consisted of a “get you out” horse and a “get you home” horse. One forward and eagre and the other intrinsically more laid back and happy to make up the numbers until he got back for his dinner when he became altogether more alert!
So off we went with me driving and 2 grooms on the backstep. Things were going very well indeed and after half an hour or so we got flagged down by the Duke’s wife and daughter who were enjoying a walk and asked if they could have a ride in the carriage back to the castle and so in they got.
Of course my pair decided that this would be the time to start to play about with me and the eagre one powered away with a beautiful extended trot now the vehicle was full and the other was hanging back in his traces and content to let his mate do all the work by himself!
I swear he knew I’d forgotten the whip! and he sure as heck wasn’t going to go in draft if he didn’t need to and he continued to hang back despite my trying to get him more forward with voice alone. So I glanced round to make sure my passengers weren’t watching and then decided to stand up and take a swing at his butt with my left leg!!
The very moment I swung out to make contact, the horse decided to surge forward and I have never come so close to falling out of the carriage! Because I didn’t make the contact I’d expected I practically fell out between the footboard and the horse’s backside!
My grooms on the back saw me stand and then vanish and for a brief moment they thought I’d gone over… then they saw me scrabble back to my seat looking a little embarrassed and flustered!
Then we came to some shrubs and I slowed right down and reached up and snapped off a branch of Rhododendron complete with leaves and flowers and completed the drive with a shrub for a whip!!
My passengers who were seated with their backs to me never even realised! Its a story often told here though!
Lesson 1 from the Master and the “Bible” for carriage drivers and coachman. Interesting reading this through as its precisely the method I use and teach, though can’t even remember being taught as I was probably only about 9 or 10 years old!
Driving Lessons – E Howlett 1894
"From the bottom of the ferrule to the knot of the thong, five feet three inches; and from that knot to the end of the thong point, twelve feet six inches. I do not like the whipcord lashes, neither silk ones; because they are too light and stick when they are wet. I prefer the leather point which is sold in England.
When not in use, always keep your whip hung on a circle about five inches in diameter.
Never lengthen the curves of the thong, as there is whalebone or goose quill in the top, and it will bend or break at the neck where the thong is joined to the stick; if this is done you lose the good fall of the whi and cannot hit a horse well with it.
I prefer a whip rather heavy than one too light because you can touch a horse lightly with a heavy one, while it is impossible to strike hard with a light one. A whip should be a tool and not a plaything.
You hold your whip about three parts up the leather handle, leaving the second ferrule just above your right hand, taking the point end of your thong in the left. You then deposit the end of the thong in your right hand, letting from six inches to a foot hang below your hand. Now comes the time to throw the double thong, or catch it round the stick in the proper way.
I find my way the easiest, for 8 times of of 10, you get it right.
Following my method, all my pupils learn in 5 minutes, while many drivers do not know how after ten years of practice. All four horse drivers ought, when they drive, to have their thong round the stick, as I will explain: holding your whip as I have said place it nearly hoirzontally across the body, your right hand level with the pit of your stomach, at about 4” from the body; we will call this position number 1. You carry the stick without swinging, so as to keep the thong hanging under it, to about the third of a circle to the right, lifting your arm all through the movement – position number 2.
Often you are a bit too high; if so lower the top of the whip from 8 to 12 inches. It all depends how the top curve of the whip is. The next movements I am going to explain must be done without a stop, and are really only one.
You drop your whip quickly, straight down about 3 feet, which brings the stick nearly horizontal; at that instant you strike the thong as it hangs on the right, carrying it towards the left until you stop at position 1.
This is position 3 or move 3. The whip may be a bit low, but you can raise it to an oblique position, pointing a bit away from you, and you will have a whip nicely carried. If well thrown, the double thong ought to be about 3 feet long; the exact length depending somewhat upon the length of the thong. To be properly caught, the double thong ought to be on the threads of the mounting.
When you have thrown the thong two or three hundred times at different intervals, as I have said, the wrist becomes more pliable which enables you to obtain the doubt thong passing from position 1 to 2.
It is a rule not to leave the thong twisted in 2 ways. Once the double thong is made, you take hold of it with the left hand where the twists change; you pull at the part that is in your right hand, which comes out; then you put it back in the right. In this way it is quite correct; the thong being curled when you want it for your leaders."
Howlett then moves on to how to actually use the whip and I’m happy to post that later if anyone is interested in the definitively correct method.
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