Fox Hunting VS Decorating your House

[Red_Hiltop]

Loaded, kind of “out there” question from a non-fox-hunter that has been in the mix a few times over the years (guest with hilltoppers).

DISCLAIMER: I am squarely in the middle of the fence. I don’t have a weighted opinion on the good/bad of fox hunting, just mostly curious from a living room decor stand point.

Flame suit on and here we go:

So the objective is to chase and or kill the fox, but at minimum give good chase. (I have seen plenty of foxes outwit the hounds but let’s assume the above statement holds and is the objective.)

So if the objective is to chase and/or kill the fox, why is there SO much emphasis on decorating with foxes in the home, etc?

If fox hunters think they are so beautiful and to be admired and painted, and decorated with on pillows, why do they want to chase/kill them?

Also, vice versa, if you do want to chase kill them, why do you want to decorate with them?

It just seems… in opposition.

Totally just curious as to the collective thoughts on this totally random topic. For myself, I don’t have any fox pillows because they would make me feel bad about chasing that one fox through the woods that one time… also if I slept on cute fox pillows I don’t think I could ever hilltop again LOL.

[Scribbler]

Probably trophy impulse.

Game hunters hang up antlers and taxidermy. There is all kind of decor and clothing items with deer and moose and geese somewhere like Cabella.

One of the big gun companies has a stylized deer head as a logo. Etc.

Fox kitsch also has strong affiliations with English country house decor.

If someone is going to hunt I don’t see a problem from an ethical point of view with celebrating the trophy. If you are uneasy about participating in a live hunt, that’s the root question. Honestly I thought everyone had gone over to scent trails now. I didn’t know they still killed foxes.

There may be a bit of a problem from an aesthetic point of view but that’s another problem altogether.

And amusingly I opened this thread thinking the question would be, I am spending so much time on my horse I have no time to decorate for Christmas!

Or: I can spend $5000 on a new horse or on new kitchen cabinets. What should I do?

[Red_Hiltop]

Good point on the deer… true true.

And yes, grew up in the commonwealth, fox print everything over there

[Red_Hiltop]

Live hunts a plenty in the USA. Foxes and coyotes a plenty in the carolinas.

[FitToBeTied]

In the US the objective is not to kill the fox. It really is a chase. In 25 years of hunting I have only seen two foxes accounted for by a kill.

With that said I find the fox/equestrian themed decorating to be very kitschy and usually completely overdone. In our house you won’t any except for the fox doorstop someone got for me. There are some pictures of us on horses/fox hunting but that is it.

[Rackonteur]

After this football weekend and then coming to this thread, my thought is that, say, Ohio State fans don’t decorate their living rooms or dorm rooms with Michigan wolverine pillows or blankets after they’ve beaten them.

So much for the “trophy” mindset. I think it’s more primitive than that. Did cultures who used most or all of the animal they hunted have anything left over to hang on the wall?

Maybe it’s a he-man sort of mindset. I’m a 6’2" 200-lb. he-man and my pack of 60-lb. hounds just killed this 20-lb. fox. Ain’t I cool! It would make more “trophy” sense to hang one’s bridle and saddle in one’s living room – I’m a 5’ 115-lb. woman and I can ride my 1200-lb. horse over any fence in the country – and bring him home sound.

Now that’s something to be proud of.

[lesson_junkie]

Why hang pictures on the wall? Because we’re lucky to SEE one at all out hunting!

[Red_Hiltop]

The OSU vs Michigan comment

Perfect analogy!

I guess I have the same question for the deer hunters, if they think the deer are so majestic, why kill them?

Also, yes, I know most times there is no kill. But (devil’s advocate) even giving chase burns calories unnecessarily that wildlife need to live on. :winkgrin:

[McGurk]

So the objective is to chase and or kill the fox, but at minimum give good chase. (I have seen plenty of foxes outwit the hounds but let’s assume the above statement holds and is the objective.)

So if the objective is to chase and/or kill the fox, why is there SO much emphasis on decorating with foxes in the home, etc?

If fox hunters think they are so beautiful and to be admired and painted, and decorated with on pillows, why do they want to chase/kill them?

Also, vice versa, if you do want to chase kill them, why do you want to decorate with them?

I can’t explain fox kitsch, and I won’t try, but I do want to address some flaws in your hypothesis.

There is very, very little emphasis on killing the fox in current American foxhunting; the emphasis is all on chasing/hound work.

Before live foxhunting was banned in the UK, it was pretty bloodthirsty, because the origins of foxhunting in that part of the world were about exterminating vermin. If you read a Bailey’s Hunting Directory from the 1980s, hunts in the UK listed how many foxes "accounted’ for, meaning killed, and some UK hunts accounted for 50 - 70 per season. In contrast, American hunts reported 0 - 6 kills with longer seasons than the UK.

Before the ban, UK hunts routinely employed earth stoppers (people to block fox dens and burrows) and terrier men (people using terriers to dig out hunted foxes) because they were deadly serious about exterminating foxes, in the same way you might be serious about exterminating rats.

In the US, huntsman and hunt clubs really are about fox conservation for sport, not killing vermin. Most live hunts in the US end by either hounds losing the scent or putting their fox to ground. When the latter, the huntsman blows “Gone to Ground”, praises the hounds lavishly, feeds them cookies and either goes home or casts another covert. Most avid foxhunters in the US want that fox to live to be chased another day.

In 15 years of very regular hunting, I saw exactly one kill, and it was an accident - it wasn’t a hunted fox and the mood was sad and somber. That’s not unusual, many US foxhunters have never seen a kill. Or want to.

I do know first hand of hunts that feed their foxes in bad weather. If you read the wonderful Rita Mae Brown novels about fox hunting, the fictional master not only feeds their foxes but occasionally puts dewormer in their feed. Since Rita Mae hunts her own pack, one could assume that in her role as huntsman, she also deworms her foxes.

All that said, I don’t understand cartoon stuffed foxes dressed in boots and hunting kit or the other cutesy fox decor. I do understand decorating your house with hunting prints (there may or may not be several in my dining room) but that’s as far as I can go.

I do know duck hunters/wing shooters who go in heavy for duck decor; and there’s also the cliche about deer hunters that they use antlers in all of their decorating.

[Highflyer]

A lot of people go in for “country” decor that’s heavy on pig/ cow/ chicken motifs but most of them aren’t vegetarians.

[Scribbler]

I think by and large people do admire the animals they hunt for sport. People feel different about stalking and shooting a big elk than they do about taking out some nuisance rats with a .22. The hunter is enhanced by killing a magestic or dangerous animal. Very Hemingway.

The fox is a nuisance animal but also huge in British folk lore as wily and clever, and what was a pest for the farmer turned into sport hunting for the gentry.

Once upon a time, the nobles hunted stags in England (in the New Forest) but those were gone by the time fox hunting emerged as a social sport thing in the 18th/ 19th century.

Anyhow lots of British country style decor tends towards the twee, it’s not just fox motifs.

[Red_Hiltop]

The question was more about the decor choices, and not so much the killing, but spot on to the duck analysis, and also the pig/chicken/vegetarian concept. SPOT ON! Too funny. Glad I am not the only one who wasn’t into kitschy stuff.

[Red_Hiltop]

Also, if the hounds do catch up, it’s not a pretty sight… similar to the chicken houses and the duck blinds …

[Red_Hiltop]

@Highflyer

A lot of people go in for “country” decor that’s heavy on pig/ cow/ chicken motifs but most of them aren’t vegetarians.

:lol::lol::lol:

[McGurk]

But I do think you’ve stumbled on an inherent contradiction - any foxhunter will tell you stories about how clever foxes are; about the one who doubled back through the meet and ran through the trailers to foil its scent, about foxes who sit and watch the hounds behind them work out their trail before moving on again, about foxes who run along the top of a fence or use a stream to conceal their scent.

So there is genuine admiration for the intelligence and cunning of foxes among foxhunters. A healthy fox in full coat is a glorious creature. So why do people who admire the animal so much still want to hunt it, where a possible result, regardless of the intent, is the fox being killed?

Perhaps (and maybe this is true of deer hunters as well?) it’s because they come to their appreciation and understanding of the animals through hunting them? I have learned more about deer and their habits from hunters than I ever have from non-hunting wildlife lovers, which is kind of sad; but the hunter has a peculiar incentive to learn more about his quarry that the wildlife lover simply doesn’t have.

Still doesn’t explain fox/deer/duck kitsch, but there’s no accounting for taste.

[Scribbler]

I also have a problem with kitten and puppy kitsch, and unfortunately most artwork featuring horses.

[Huntin_Fool]

I also think that hunters, or some hunters, especially the ones who are sportsmen, admire and like their prey. Sort of a gesture of respect-lots of cultures have pictures or a prayer of thanks, etc. And when I think of it-cave paintings in France, sort of the same thing. And I think that was truer when people felt that there was an afterlife, where all entities would be there. Or like my father who felt strongly about the circle of predator and prey and that humans were responsible for maintaining a balance-which included leaving some farmland for animals to live in. We have a small farm-but in his day it had hedgerows etc. for animals.

[BeeHoney]

@Red Hiltop

Also, yes, I know most times there is no kill. But (devil’s advocate) even giving chase burns calories unnecessarily that wildlife need to live on. :winkgrin:

So, I just want to point out here (again) that in the US fox kills are extremely rare and typically in the instance of an old or sick animal that was likely to die of natural causes.

As far as burning unnecessary calories, I find that point very strange. Do you hunt? Have you seen how easily a fox eludes a pack of hounds? A fox that is needing those calories so desperately that it is endangered by a day’s hunting is likely an unhealthy specimen that arguably should be culled to prevent the spread of disease.

Most hunts (at least ones that I am familiar with) go to great lengths to preserve large tracts of land in order to preserve habitat for foxes. Hunts often care for their foxes with period deworming via laced food and by protecting the locations where the vixens are raising their young. I think being chased a little is probably not a bad tradeoff to not having your home sold to be turned into a shopping mall or housing development. Fox hunters also tend to be animal and wildlife lovers who work in their communities to advance habitat preservation and animal welfare.

I get it that you find there is some kind of conflict between being fascinated by foxes and also hunting them, but seriously, in terms of cruelty to animals, fox hunting is pretty darn mild. Yes, there is an inconvenience to the animal being hunted, but there is rarely any actual harm done. In terms of animal welfare, your concern would be better expended in about a thousand other directions.

[Trot_On]

This year a young male grey fox moved into the woods behind my boarding barn. A fellow foxhunter and I noticed him first; prints in the ring, and fox poop on the driveway, and finally a glimpse of him in the fields in the evening. When the mulberries started to fall, the rest of the barn noticed him. We calmed their fears, “no, he not rabid he’s just eating the berries”, “yes, it’s ok to see him in the daylight, they are not nocturnal.” We educated them and gave them an appreciation for the handsome dog fox.Thank goodness the foxhunters knew about foxes, because the initial fear and ignorance from the barn staff and boarders led to suggestions ranging from call 911, the game warden, or shoot it now. We all enjoyed catching occasional views of our 5 0’clock fox until unfortunately one day he did not look both ways, and was found dead on the side of the road.

Loss of habitat and roads are the greatest threat to foxes. People are convinced that the poor fox is routinely torn limb from limb, by fearsome vicious hounds. Yet, the clue of what may happen to the fox is shown by their own dog when playing with a dog toy. The dog pounces on the toy and rapidly shakes it’s head back and forth, producing an efficient neck snapping motion. That instinctive motion is hardwired into the fox with a mouse or bird, the terrier with a rat, the foxhound or couch potato dog. As other posters have pointed out this only happens when a fox is unable to escape because of prior injury or disease. The fox hunts by scent and also knows how to elude by scent. In the battle of wits of eluding the hounds, the fox frequently has weather on its side. It may be too hot, too dry, too wet, too windy for hounds to follow his scent trail consistently. I have a respect and admiration for the fox, I have seen them outwit hounds on a regular basis.

As Huntin’ Fool pointed out there must be knowledge and respect for animals, I love the analogy to the cave paintings. I am not sure if the face book posting with your kill is the same thing as the prayer of thanks many cultures said after a kill. I worry we have lost too much touch with the land. One extreme thinks that nature is a Disney cartoon, and the other just wants to shoot everything, pave it or strip mine it, or turn it into 4 wheeler parks.

I do have some sporting art in my house, because it makes me think of a day out with horse and hounds. I hunt because I love being out with all of them, my horse, the hounds and the fox. I go out with the hope of a fun day and the expectation that we will all return safe. I work to keep myself, horse and hounds safe - fox is on his own. Our hunt helps the foxes by educating landowners and farmers not to shoot or trap foxes and encouraging habitat.

[Equibrit]

The only hunt decorating around here is the fox mask on the tack room wall.