anti hunting movements are a class war tool. Kind of like PeTA not being for animals.
They don’t care if they cream a deer on the road, but curse it for the damage it does to the car.
They don’t want to protect foxes.
They just want to stick it to the posh people riding horses.
17 Likes
There are a lot of them where I live 25 miles north of Boston. We see them - and deer - using our south field as a highway all the time. The coyotes also go after rabbits, which TBH I don’t mind too much, because there are always more rabbits! I also see them where Feronia is boarded (and one got the favorite barn cat last summer, sigh…)
I did have to get used to how big and bold and social New England coyotes are, compared to the scrawny shy little creatures I grew up with in Southern California. Apparently the ones here have a lot of wolf in them.
2 Likes
This makes me so sad. I am not disagreeing w/ your observations but it is completely at odds with the hunter/fisher folk that I am very familiar with. I am in the upper midwest and while there may be some poaching I would think it rare and not year round - at all. Everyone knows of stories of folks getting busted by the DNR - mostly for over the limit fishing. Deer hunting is a really big thing and I think hunters would be very mad if folks were out hunting out of season - same with any type of bird hunting. The fishing openers are big deals and yes, there are DNR folks waiting for you at boat landings. Slot limits are enforced.
I find it shameful that the hunters in your area are not regulated. It puts a bad stain on all.
10 Likes
Coyote research - I thought there were studies showing that killing coyotes can actually increase the population and that if you have a stable, hunting the correct things (rabbits, ground squirrels) pack, simply let them be. Low numbers increases the number of pups/litter. Removing a pack allows for another pack to move in which may kill/hunt things that are incorrect (cats, new born farm critters, etc). We have a stable pack here. I hear them often; I think letting them be is the best - even though they annoy me when they go through and attempt to dig out ground squirrels. The holes are amazing. I think snakes would be less - disruptive - for squirrel hunting. We also have fox.
8 Likes
Foxhunter here! 
Or, more accurately, fox chaser.
Yes, there are lots of hunts in the US that are still live, not drag hunts. Fox chasing in the US is very, very different than it was in the UK. The emphasis is on the hounds and scent hunting, NOT killing. Fox populations are somewhat delicate, if too many are removed, coyotes move in and take over the territory. Also, pre-ban, UK fox hunts routinely blocked earths prior to hunting and employed terrier men to dig foxes out of dens. UK fox hunters viewed foxes as vermin to be eradicated, and treated them much like their US counterparts treat rats, because in the UK, the fox has no predators and the population is uncontrolled.
US foxhunters are first and foremost conservationists, concerned about preserving open spaces and wildlife. (We have to be, otherwise we’d run out of foxes to chase and open land to chase them on.) Foxes are rarely killed in the US, the chase ends when either the fox evades the hounds (most common) or the fox gets tired of the game and goes to ground. This is my favorite part, because the huntsman dismounts and makes a huge fuss over his hounds, petting them and feeding them treats while praising them for a job well done. Then the huntsman remounts his horse and decides if he’s going to try to find another one to give us a chase or to go home for the day. The fox in the burrow lives for another day, and we hope, another chase.
I can’t prove it empirically, but I strongly believe, after decades of observing foxes at their leisure and while being hunted, that they chose to participate and that they absolutely plan their run and how they lay their scent. There is simply no other explanation for the things I have observed in the wild and while hunting.
Foxes are brilliant tacticians. I have watched a hunted fox sit out in the open, uphill and upwind, in full sight of the entire field and watch the hounds work through a scent puzzle he has laid, and only when the hounds are close to solving it, leisurely trot away.
Most long term fox hunters have similar anecdotes.
It’s also helpful to remind non-hunters that hounds hunt solely by scent, and foxes hunt by sight, scent and hearing. All advantage to the fox. I have also seen the lead hound get within feet of a fox, and to have the fox put on a burst of speed and pull away. The hound never realizes how close he was to the fox, because he never looks, he’s just following his nose. And the fox survived to give us a chase another day.
Please research hunting practices in various parts of the world before tarring us all with the same broad brush.
37 Likes
One of my favorite moments from hunting last year was when I was standing at the trailers watching the huntsman and the hounds come in, and a Mama bear and two cubs ran across the field directly in front of the hounds.
The huntsman and one whipper-in had no trouble calling the hounds off and keeping them in order until they were back in the truck.
A well trained pack of foxhounds is a joy to behold, and much better behaved than the average pet at the dog park.
@LeatherLover, if you have problems with loose dogs harassing your livestock and wildlife, I can guarantee that they are NOT foxhounds.
26 Likes
Lovely description.
I am very in favor of drags and “chases”.
I have not nor would I be interested in participating in a hunt where the goal was to dispatch an animal, coyote or otherwise. In 2024 I feel that we have much more ethical and painless ways to eradicate an animal if needed.
This thread has been such a nice opportunity to hear from fox hunters across the country. I hunted for a season 15 years ago but I was there to put miles on a young horse for a seasoned member so honestly I spent most of my time and focus trying to stay intact and out of the way as opposed to observing and asking questions. However, those who I know who are active in the community are very proud of the land stewardship and that they have kept their foxes safe.
5 Likes
Hunting or chasing an animal in its home territory is one thing. Trapping an animal, bringing it to a strange place, and then releasing it in an area that the hounds are drawing toward so the huntsman can impress members and guests in the field with his hunting prowess is another thing entirely.
Then of course, there are fox pens, where trapped animals are released in confined areas to “train” fox hounds.
Those things I find deplorable.
Thank you for sharing the UK perspective as much as it also breaks my heart a bit.
Where does that happen? In the UK?
If live hunting is banned, how are either of those things possible?
That is the least sportsmanlike think I have ever heard of.
FWIW, the tradition that I grew up with and is still practiced is that if you view a fox out of cover you must quietly count to ten before alerting the Master or saying “Tally Ho!”
The logic is that if the hounds lifted their heads from the scent and ran to the “Tally Ho” or view hallo (which would be very poor form by the hounds, they should stay on the line unless lifted by the huntsman), the fox would still have a reasonable head start.
5 Likes
Where does this happen?
Okay, I’m snowed in and recovering from the flu, so I’m going to take a crack at why horsepeople encourage foxchasing.
-
It is the root of many of our modern competitive disciplines. If you show hunters or eq, maybe you should find out why taking out or adding a stride is important, or why you have a trot fence in the handy. If you event, you’ll create a bolder, more confident horse. If you show jump, you’ll learn not to micromanage the distance and trust your horse a little more.
-
Many people have never truly ridden outside the ride other than a nose to tail walking trail ride. Moving on in company is exhilarating and an entirely different experience.
-
You will quickly abandon faddish or posed equitation for functional equitation.
-
You will ride across country you would never have access to otherwise.
-
Watching scent hounds hunt is endlessly fascinating, you’ll never completely understand it. It’s science, art and magic all rolled up into one.
-
You will feel incredibly close to your trusted equine partner after hunting. The only thing that comes close is finishing up a tough cross country phase while eventing.
That’s why horsepeople encourage others to go hunting.
32 Likes
Doing something as unsportsmanlike as this would be considered totally unacceptable by the fox hunting community and I have never heard of it done. I don’t know if there would be some official penalty by the MFHA, but at a minimum there would be terrible outcry and I’d expect a huntsman to be let go with a black mark on their record. I don’t think anyone would be admiring the prowess of a huntsman in such a situation here either–I imagine that such a fox would run in an abnormal pattern and people would be more scratching their heads that something was off. Chasing and quickly catching a fox would be considered a shocking event.
Have you heard of this actually happening somewhere?
17 Likes
I remember reading somewhere that hunts do occasionally trap and then releases foxes in new areas for various reasons, but when this happened, they wouldn’t hunt that area for at least a year to give the fox a chance to learn the new area.
4 Likes
I foxhunted this fall (not a drag hunt) - didn’t see a fox. Went on vacation and saw a fox in the middle of downtown Oslo. Crazy.
9 Likes
The people most likely to view the fox while hunting are the whips, who are purposely placed on the far side of the cover to see what pops out when the hounds are put in, and the hilltoppers, who view the fox when it circles back around. I always advise people to turn around and look behind the field at checks, because the fox will very nonchalantly cross directly behind them.
People who hunt first and second flight, even people who hunt in the Master’s pocket, rarely get a view.
14 Likes
Foxes (and coyote) are pretty abundant in the area I’m in, so actually not uncommon to see them even in first flight. Granted the day I went out, it was about 3 hours without a scent before the hounds were on something’s trail. I just found it funny two weeks later I saw one in a major city.
4 Likes
Yes, directly from the trapper/releasers as to my first paragraph. You can question their veracity and mine too, of course. As to the second paragraph, fox pens are very well documented things. As of 2019 the Richmond newspaper reported that there were 37 of them in Virginia, large acreage totally enclosed areas used to train hounds on trapped foxes. Some were private, and others full time commercial enterprises.
You’re being disingenuous.
Yes, I found the RTD article, and yes, it’s disgusting. There is absolutely no mention of mounted fox hunters, or any hunt club associated with the MFHA, participating in this mess.
You’re tarring legitimate foxhunters with a very dirty brush indeed.
ETA: From the MFHA guidebook: “2. The hunting of “dropped” quarry, or any other practice that does not give the animal a sporting fair chase chance, is contrary to all traditions of the sport and is not sport at all. It is inconsistent with the true principles of mounted hunting with hounds and is strictly forbidden.”
The MFHA does not endorse the use of Fox Hunting Preserves.
34 Likes
Fox pens are a reality in VA. Unfortunately we lose many foxes to trappers who sell them to the fox pens. There are competitions held, and several hounds that have gone missing from recognized foxhunting packs are believed to have been stolen by individuals to enter them in these trials.
Recognized packs do not participate in fox pen competitions and fox pens are not endorsed by the MFHA.
That being said, legal fox pens are supposed to provide adequate cover or separate pens for the fox to escape. I have no personal experience with fox pens to determine if that’s the actual case.
Bagging a fox to let it loose in unfamiliar territory is a story you hear go around every once in a while, but if proven it would expose the hunt to great ridicule and censure by the MFHA as it is strictly forbidden in their rules.
20 Likes
