[QUOTE=wateryglen;4822087]
\ Loose OK for dogs; NOT horses![/QUOTE]
Loose OK for dogs…really???
Most areas I ride in this is not legal.
I am aware that accidents happen, particularly with animals, and if the story had different details I might agree with those saying the OP overreacted, etc. But the details are what they are. The dog owner clearly made minimal intelligent effort to reduce the chances of her dogs getting loose. Taking three larger dogs for a walk in public and using VELCRO to affix one to your ARM is carelessness. Last time I checked, velcro isn’t reliable as a means of keeping a force in motion affixed to a still object, and a human arm isn’t particularly sturdy as a snubbing post for a 50lb dog.:rolleyes: It’s like people who meet minimal requirements for keeping horses - AC doesn’t act because it’s not actually illegal to keep a horse in rusted barbed-wire fencing with three decrepit combines, a swing set and an ancient truck, but it increases the risk of an ‘accident’ to the point where it’s not really an accident anymore, it’s a unfixed but near certain party date in the future.
And I am happy the OP hit the dog with a whip; idiot dog owners usually are repeat offenders until those inconvenienced have the temerity to revisit the aggravation on them. It’s hard on the dog, but your first responsibility is to your own safety and that of your animals.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;4821954]
If this was a Pit Bull, Rottie, Dobie, etc. the board would be outraged that this big dangerous breed dog was taken into public without the appropriate equipment to contain him.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Oh, come on now. If the OP had said the dogs were pits or rotties, the entire thread would now be totally derailed on the crazy train that is any conversation where anyone intimates that perhaps a Breed With Very Sensitive Owners did something naughty. Thank God these dogs were Boxers. Too bad they weren’t Lhasas or Yorkies; if they weighed 10lbs soaking wet, nobody would have faulted the poor OP for cracking them with a whip.
Well said Auventera Two- you’re welcome on our urban trails anytime.
A dog is “under control” until he isn’t and that can happen in a split second he has become distracted by other loose dogs and off he goes on his own trail, oblivious to his master. How can anyone guarantee their dog is 100% under control when unleashed out on the trails…? As far a urban parks go, I think they should be always leashed.
Some mention turning horse’s face to the dog, what does one do when dog comes first to the horses face and starts jumping up under his jaw? Had this happen to my friend while dog owner tries to call off dog.
There are some really responsible dog owners, don’t get me wrong but their are a lot of city dog owners who don’t have a clue, and their dogs run them.
[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;4822226]
Loose OK for dogs…really???
Most areas I ride in this is not legal.[/QUOTE]
It’s not legal to run red lights either, but I still exercise a little caution before entering on the green at intersections where I’ve seen people cruise through on a red.
It’s not about who was right or wrong. Or what’s legal. When you go out on public trails on your horse, you’d best be prepared because stuff happens --whether it’s your horse doing something he’s NEVER done before or someone who accidentally lets her dog loose.
PS – Hitting the dog for sniffing the horse’s leg doens’t bother me. It seems like an overreaction (just like the whole story), but meh. I let my horse take care of that stuff himself, and he usually does – with his front feet.
villager, IME it’s better to let your horse face the scarey thing. Turns off the “flight” reflex and turns on the “fight.”
If you let your dog loose on a public trail - in a state where there are LEASH LAWS - you better be lucky if “all” a person does is smack your dog with a crop. Because you know, the OP would have the right to call the police and file charges against a negligent dog owner and a large dog attacking her.
When you have 100 lbs. of dog running at you, or the back legs of your horse, you have no idea what his intentions are. Defend yourself now - ask questions later. 
If doggie owner wants to flit off in a huff over it - two words for you - LEASH LAW.
I quit turning my horse to face loose dogs when the loose dog ran up under the horse’s neck snapping and growling and the horse reared on her hind legs black stallion style. I could have gone over backwards and broken my neck. It turned out the dog was a sweetheart. A big chocolate lab that once introduced to the horses never charged us again as we rode past his house. He eventually was killed by a car though and now the owner has a fence put up with a new dog. I’d rather have the horse’s butt to the dog so at least he has a chance to kick. And if the dog has to be put down because he was severely injured, yes it’s tragic and sad and I wouldn’t sleep for weeks over it, but that’s better than being killed myself.
Responsible dog owners, and responsible horse owners can coexist peacefully on the same trails. 99% of the dogs I meet are leashed and well under control. I don’t turn my horse loose on public trails to run around as she wishes, and I’d expect the same in return from dog owners. EACH individual needs to have their animals under control at all times. If a horse owner hit the trails with a wimpy little piece of velcro holding a rein on the bit, we’d think they were an idiot for having inappropriate equipment for the task at hand. Ditto for fido’s owner.
Accidents do happen and I think the OP’s attitude would be different if the woman had done everything right, but she tripped and dropped the leash accidentally and the dog got loose. That would not have been a moment of stupidity and negligence. But velcroing an adult Boxer to your arm then trying to manhandle 2 other adult Boxers at the same time is negligence and laxity in judgement.
[QUOTE=mp;4822295]
It’s not legal to run red lights either, but I still exercise a little caution before entering on the green at intersections where I’ve seen people cruise through on a red.
It’s not about who was right or wrong. Or what’s legal.[/QUOTE]
Yes but wateryglen said loose dogs were OK, so…
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;4822305]
Responsible dog owners, and responsible horse owners can coexist peacefully on the same trails. 99% of the dogs I meet are leashed and well under control. EACH individual needs to have their animals under control at all times.[/QUOTE]
And shit will still happen, even when everyone is responsible.
You (universal) can try to take what happens in stride (I’ve had dogs run at me or pop out of the woods and my horse got buzzed – not fun). Or expend loads of energy fuming about it and who is at fault and why. Your choice.
Or I guess you could stay home, but if you’re a fumer, then you’ll probably find something there to fume about, too.
Lark, I’m not keen on loose dogs either.
So, once again, I think it’s pretty easy to be on both sides of all of these posts.
The dog owner was irresponsible, fact. The OP didn’t have the level of control on her horse she probably should have, fact.
Those facts are not mutually exclusive, so you can think the OP could have handled it better while still thinking the dog owner was irresponsible.
So, to discuss the dog owner: She clearly should not have been using flexi leashes attached to her arm by velcro if her dog is a mature boxer (no matter how sweet and well trained he may “usually” be). I don’t particularly like flexi leashes either, but I think they can serve a purpose if used properly. I consider them to be sort of like a longe line, but I think they should always be locked as soon as you adjust the leash to where you want it. So she was irresponsible, but that’s pretty typical, so you have to be prepared for that. At least she was attempting to keep her dogs on leash.
Discussing the OP’s reaction: From the way the incident was initially described, I think the horse probably should have held her ground and not dumped you (or perhaps you weren’t quite solid enough in your seat because you were distracted), but I wouldn’t place blame on the dog or the horse - the blame is with the owners (both horse and dog in this case, but probably a little bit more horse owner than dog owner). On a public trail, these kinds of things can happen, so your horse should be ready for it. If your horse might not be ready for it, then you have to be ready for it (not saying you should stay at home, just be prepared).
Again, from the way the OP described the incident, it really doesn’t sound like she initially thought the dog was viciously charging to attack her horse. It sounds like he got loose and wanted to come investigate, so whatever, it is the dog owners fault he got loose, but the OP falling off is something that can just happen sometimes but probably shouldn’t have in this case.
Smacking the dog with the whip… Well, the OP did say he was sniffing the horse’s hind legs. The OP’s use of the word sniffing leads me to believe she didn’t really feel like the dog was likely to bite. So was the dressage whip necessary? Probably not, but I wasn’t there. The dog certainly won’t be scarred for life, and it was probably safer than the kick the horse might have given. I’d have been a little worried about swatting a whip around my horse’s hind legs, honestly. My guy probably would have thought that was his cue to leave all together, haha.
Anyway, OP, I see why you’re mad. Most dog owners aren’t all that great at doggie discipline. However, I think your generally trail broke pony probably needs a little bit more dog time and you might need to be a little more alert in your seat on trail rides - we all get dumped. It just happens.
I’m not all for dogs running willy nilly on trails either. If they are required to be leashed, they should be, but your horse should really be prepared for loose dogs. Unfortunately, some dogs actually do get nippy, and then all bets are off. My roommate (very experienced eventer) was riding my very solid appy around Audubon Park in New Orleans when a yappy snappy little terrier tore across the grass and starting biting at his ankles. Well, my horse has absolutely no problem with dogs running around him, sniffing, playing, etc, but this freaked him out and he panicked. He initially spooked in place like a good boy but did start spinning a bit when he got actually nipped. The owner was oblivious and got mad at my roomie for some reason (this is a leashes required park)… All she had said to him was, you need to get your dog under control or my horse is going to kick him hard because he’s nipping.
Just trying to say that I realize there are situations where dogs are quite dangerous that are hard to prep your horses for.
I agree with all sides.
—If someone’s dog ever comes up to my horse uncontrolled without my permission- I will whomp the ever loving sheet out of it.
—Likewise, if my well-trained cattle dog ever runs up to you, your child, your grandmother, or your horse and is not under my control… you have my permission to do the same. She won’t, because she’s trained. But in the extremely minute chance that it happens, you have my absolute permission.
Along the same line of thought… when I take my horse out in public… it is my responsibility to keep my horse in check as well.
And well… riding out in public… expect the unexpected.
[QUOTE=LuvMyNSH;4821020]
Most of my issues with other trail users is from problems I’ve had while hiking. Not sure how you read what I wrote and got “wah wah mean doggies shouldn’t be on the trail” out of it.
There is no excuse for having an out of control dog out on a public trail. That sort of stupidity is what ends up getting dogs banned from public areas. I like hiking with my dogs. Mine are actually trained though. That means I do not let them harass other trail users. I’d be pissed if I have to start leaving my dogs at home because of total idiots like the woman the OP described.[/QUOTE]
I’m just tired of people beeotching about it…most of the general public owns dogs…a good percentage aren’t the brightest, conscienous dog owners…some of those dog owners use public trails…and sheet happens even with the best behaved dog/horse/whatever…they are animals…the do have minds of their own. I’m just tired of people belly aching about things like retractable leashes…give me a break…if you aren’t willing to deal with the unexpected trail riding your horse…whether it be a loose dog, cows, cars, whatever…then don’t venture out. Otherwise, use it as a learning experience for your horse.
[QUOTE=Huntertwo;4821578]
Okay for the people who just don’t get it.
We were facing the dog. We were not close to each other when we talked.
Dog comes running down the trail dragging retractable lease that was held on to owner’s arm by velcro.
Would you use velcro to tighten your girth and be surprised when it didn’t hold? :rolleyes:
She has been my trail pony for 6 years. We have encountered Deer, Turkey, birds flying up from under her feet, Dirt Bikes, ATVs, Bicyclists, Mountain Bikes, chain saws, barking dogs on leashes, snow-shoers, log splitters, PLANES taking off over our heads. (See my first couple of paragraphs)
We have leash laws around here - meaning you must have control over your dog at all times when in public.
Legally, I could have been a real beech and called the police.
And YES! I will crack another dog with my whip should it come running after us.
If it is between my pony possibly getting bit or a charging dog??? The dog is going to get smacked. Hands down.
End of story.[/QUOTE]
Actually I don’t know if the police would have done anything…the dog actually was on a leash…just not attached to the owner…so by all accounts the owner was attempting to contain her dog…whether you agree with the velcro or not…she did have her dog on a leash. It wasn’t like she was just allowing the dog to run free on a leashed trail.
[QUOTE=lcw579;4822182]
What mp said.
We’ve all been there. I’ve turned my horse to face down bigger dogs than a boxer trying to sniff around the back legs while calmly telling the dog owner that some horses will kick. So to whoever said we’d be screaming if it was a rottie or a pitbull - not so much. I don’t tend to borrow trouble. And when I fall off? You know what? It usually is my fault. 
Oh, and if you hit my dog - I’d be pissed. My dogs are horse saavy but rescue mutt sometimes gets too close. If he gets kicked that’s on him and me but not for you to go whipping him. He’s usually just trying to get a good look at who’s riding to see if he knows them.[/QUOTE]
You what’s interesting…the same person who whipped the dog is the same person who said she “felt sorry” for Gallop’s horse…because Gallop said something about a “come to Jesus meeting”…hmmmmmmmmm…
about those flexi leads- someone gave me one as a present, so I tried it out and it sure seemed handy! I used it for about 6 months and really liked it.
Until the day when something crossed my dog’s path into the bushes, he took off, the lock popped open when he hit the end of the locked in length, then he ran until he hit the end of the lead and it snapped where it attaches to the snap! And of course the dog kept running.
I got a NASTY whip burn as the thing recoiled into the back of my hand.
Thankfully, whatever small critter it was, got away and the dog eventually returned to my call. The whip…err… I mean flexi lead…is in the trash.
I always suspected something like that could happen with those things… There’s no way those locks are strong enough to properly contain a big dog if he bolts from a standstill. And I don’t love the placement of the handhold if you’re trying to do any sort of work on the leash with your dog. Interesting. I guess if you want an adjustable length leash, you should just get a really long one and treat it like you would a longe line = )
I see those things everywhere though, and it’s usually people that probably should be keeping their dog on a short leash that use them, haha. Oh well, not like that sort of situation is unique to dog owners.
The velcro chick was an idiot. Granted. But she was well-intentioned.
I worry about showing anger in this situation. Had you hit the dog of a hair-trigger attorney, I think you would have quickly found yourself in deep trouble.
In similar situations where I thought I, my horse or the dog might get hurt, I have yelled at someone else’s dog. I mean to sound angry. Usually that’s enough. Had the dog not listened, I supposed I would have gotten more aggressive.
But then I apologize to the owner and explain that had the horse taken matters into his own steel-shod hooves, things could quickly gone down hill. I then apologize again and give them a chance to do the same. They usually do and often the exchange ends in the dog-owner catching the dog and the four of us doing a proper dog-horse introduction. Everyone walks away more educated and happy.
You can tart this up and retroactively explain that hitting the dog was about protecting it. But your posts don’t suggest that that was your motive. Your refusal to accept the dog owner’s apology would seal that interpretation.
Please don’t set a bad example of a rider for dog owners. There are many more of them than us, and they enjoy more political power.
For many yrs i owned a very good trail horse. Nothing bothered her. deer, turkeys, barking chasing dogs, dirt bikes that whizzed by, mtn bikers etc until the winter day I encountered a cross country skier. We shared the same trails but i had never encountered one because I rode during the day during the week. The poor horse - she was so scared, it was all I good do to pull her off the trail to a safe distance in the woods while the skier went past.
Then there was the day with the lady walking her GSD. But the lady was wearing a gold lame coat that sparkled differently in the sun every time she moved and made a crinkling sound. I did ask her to stop and not move while I tried to control the horse and got by her safely. Thanked her. The lady thought the horse was scared of the GSD and couldn’t image that she herself was the cause of so much angst.
My point is that you never, never, know what you will encounter and different groups of people share the same trails. They have as much right to be there as I do and it’s my responsibility to keep me, the horse, and them safe. A 1000 lb animal, out of control, can do alot more damage than a 100lb dog. I think the OP fell off and was pissed at herself and took it out on dog and human.
Horse was out of control. Dog was out of control. Both rider and dog walker screwed up. Sounds like dog got the worst of it.
I have some sympathy for rider. No one confines or controls their dogs where I live. If one wants to ride in the big wide world, one accepts that fact. Do I think it’s right? No. I think loose dogs are a hazard, most often to themselves, but occasionally to others.
BUT - Do I think my neighbors will suddenly acquire a sense of responsibility and train/confine their dogs? HAHAHAHAHAHA. No. This is why I will never have a horse who is dog-aggressive or who spooks at dogs. I don’t say I like the fact that free-range canines abound, but I accept the way the world is and conform to its ways.
Would I hit dog with a whip? Yeah, maybe. Would I do a lot more schooling with my horse so I don’t hit the dirt the next time (and there will be a next time:yes:) I encounter a clueless dog owner? Absolutely.
I wonder if there is a boxer thread somewhere discussing this incident from the dog owner’s point of view.
[QUOTE=mvp;4822995]
The velcro chick was an idiot. Granted. But she was well-intentioned.
I worry about showing anger in this situation. Had you hit the dog of a hair-trigger attorney, I think you would have quickly found yourself in deep trouble.
In similar situations where I thought I, my horse or the dog might get hurt, I have yelled at someone else’s dog. I mean to sound angry. Usually that’s enough. Had the dog not listened, I supposed I would have gotten more aggressive.
But then I apologize to the owner and explain that had the horse taken matters into his own steel-shod hooves, things could quickly gone down hill. I then apologize again and give them a chance to do the same. They usually do and often the exchange ends in the dog-owner catching the dog and the four of us doing a proper dog-horse introduction. Everyone walks away more educated and happy.
You can tart this up and retroactively explain that hitting the dog was about protecting it. But your posts don’t suggest that that was your motive. Your refusal to accept the dog owner’s apology would seal that interpretation.
Please don’t set a bad example of a rider for dog owners. There are many more of them than us, and they enjoy more political power.[/QUOTE]
:yes: This is exactly what I wanted to express, only you said is much more eloquently and concisely than I would have managed. :yes:
Hey, wait a minute - I’m a hair-trigger attorney!
And I can’t think of anything I could sue the OP for.
But in my state, dogs are property. This is kind of a bad thing, because it means someone can kill your dog in front of you in slow and painful ways and you can only recover the value of the dog. Happens a lot in battered-women cases (batterers being household terrorists, in addition to being wastes of oxygen, but I digress). Our legislators have a bill now to try to change this state of affairs, but who knows if it will pass.
Anyway, this issue is very state-dependent. Some states allow for emotional damages to the owner, some don’t.
