Free choice hay and laminitis and bad advice

[Scribbler]

@hank

There is certainly an advantage in being an inexperienced, undereducated, newbie trimmer. The advantage is…they religiously believe what they are selling.
A few years of failures will cool the ardour, and exposure to other methods will prove the ignorance. Too bad many horses will have to suffer in the meantime.

He also apparently invented groundwork training and is the first person in the world to go bitless in a rope halter. But he’s been riding for seven years so he’s super experienced, don’t you know.

It’s true that a beginner trainer may be able to explain things to newbie riders and keep it very simple because they just don’t have that many tools in their tool kit.

And ditto a beginner trimmer that focuses on one invisible problem like imaginary thrush ( but clearly misses that his clients horse is getting obese and footsore over time from laminitis).

[Janet]

My initial reaction is that the founder, if it is related to the hay at all, is more likely to be related to the alfalfa content than the “free choice” feeding.

My understanding is that the founder risk is NOT related to sugar levels, but to something else in the alfalfa. Sugar levels are culprits in Cushings, and other metabolic diseases (which may, in turn lead to founder), but not a direct cause of founder.

[SuzieQNutter]

Horses can live on grassy hay. They can not live on lucerne hay (alfalfa) if they are not also eating grass.

[Simkie]

I guess there have always been zealots, and there have always been snake oil salesmen. They often (always?) capitalize on the current trends. @Scribbler, must be so frustrating to see that play out real time :-/

Good point, @Texarkana, about being able to find “sources” to support just about any position. Is it the critical thinking skills that are missing, then? The ability to filter through the chaff?
”‹”‹”‹

@SuzieQNutter

Horses can live on grassy hay. They can not live on lucerne hay (alfalfa) if they are not also eating grass.

Some horses do just fine on free choice alfalfa hay. I’ve fed horses that way in the middle of a midwestern winter (certainly no grass) and they thrived. Not going to work for all of them, though, no.

[SuzieQNutter]

@Simkie

I guess there have always been zealots, and there have always been snake oil salesmen. They often (always?) capitalize on the current trends. @Scribbler, must be so frustrating to see that play out real time :-/

Good point, @Texarkana, about being able to find “sources” to support just about any position. Is it the critical thinking skills that are missing, then? The ability to filter through the chaff?
”‹”‹”‹

Some horses do just fine on free choice alfalfa hay. I’ve fed horses that way in the middle of a midwestern winter (certainly no grass) and they thrived. Not going to work for all of them, though, no.

Yes over winter, not all uear round and forever.

[Bluey]

@SuzieQNutter

Yes over winter, not all uear round and forever.

Well, yes, some horses do just fine on alfalfa, other than those too young, where the calcium/phosphorus ratio is not right for them.

Many cattle working horses here are on a big bale of alfalfa year around and a block of white salt and being worked most days.
They thrive like that for years on end.
Our vets have been heard to say alfalfa could be a complete feed, for the right horse.

I wonder if where you are they have other kinds of alfalfa than we have here, or the soils lack some nutrients?

[SuzieQNutter]

@Bluey

Well, yes, some horses do just fine on alfalfa, other than those too young, where the calcium/phosphorus ratio is not right for them.

Many cattle working horses here are on a big bale of alfalfa year around and a block of white salt and being worked most days.
They thrive like that for years on end.
Our vets have been heard to say alfalfa could be a complete feed, for the right horse.

I wonder if where you are they have other kinds of alfalfa than we have here, or the soils lack some nutrients?

It could be different in different areas, but when I heard it, it was basically that a horse was created with a caseum to process grass, not legumes.

[Simkie]

@SuzieQNutter

It could be different in different areas, but when I heard it, it was basically that a horse was created with a caseum to process grass, not legumes.

When I Google the word “caseum” I get articles about tonsil stones

I’ve also known horses that live on alfalfa with no issues. It’s not uncommon in some areas of the country where little to no grass hay is produced.

No, it’s not appropriate for all of them (what is?) but some horses can do really well on it.

[lorilu]

because its spelled cEcum.
My horses are on free choice T/A compressed bale in the winter. They eat slowly because it’s compressed. No obesity issues at all. (Iberians)

[JB]

@Janet

My initial reaction is that the founder, if it is related to the hay at all, is more likely to be related to the alfalfa content than the “free choice” feeding.

It’s most likely to be related to the overall diet being too high in NSC, whether it’s due to the sugar, or the starch, or the combination

[My understanding is that the founder risk is NOT related to sugar levels, but to something else in the alfalfa. Sugar levels are culprits in Cushings, and other metabolic diseases (which may, in turn lead to founder), but not a direct cause of founder.

Of course sugar and starch are directly related to laminitis. That doesn’t mean all high NSC diets result in laminitis, and it doesn’t mean all laminitis is directly (or indirectly) related to a high NSC diet (think mechanical laminitis). But the whole issue with IR horses is their total NSC needs to be low (and sometimes lowwwwww), and that’s a function of sugar and starch.

That doesn’t mean that some IR horses don’t have a problem with alfalfa despite it’s generally low NSC

@SuzieQNutter

Horses can live on grassy hay. They can not live on lucerne hay (alfalfa) if they are not also eating grass.

Sure they can. Horses born and raised in the SW do it all the time.

@SuzieQNutter

Yes over winter, not all uear round and forever.

yes, they can - see above. There are areas of the country - the SW mostly - where it’s alfalfa, or nothing. Many, many horses are raised on and die on (old age) straight alfalfa diets.

Is that ideal? No. Is the alfalfa of the SW different from that on the East coast? Absolutely.

[SuzieQNutter]

@lorilu

because its spelled cEcum.
My horses are on free choice T/A compressed bale in the winter. They eat slowly because it’s compressed. No obesity issues at all. (Iberians)

LOL and pure curd of milk.

That is how my Mum spelt it. I will amend it and the data in the future.

[Scribbler]

The situation here isn’t just feeding alfalfa or even free feeding alfalfa, its feeding free choice hay while the horse gets fatter and fatter, more and more reluctant to move, until finally the reality was inescapable.

I also know someone who appears to have foundered two ponies now on grass hay by letting them get obese, but they are much less forthcoming about the actual dx so I can only go on my observations.

I think when a horse gets that obese their metabolism can go wonky regardless of what they ate to get that fat.

[Simkie]

I doubt the cecum has anything to do with it, since cows also have one. A little brush up on bovine anatomy here: https://extension.umn.edu/dairy-nutr…#cecum-1000462

Scribbler, how does anyone watch a horse get fatter and fatter and think it’s okay? I’m not trying to pose a facetious question…genuinely asking what sort of thought process goes into that, from your point of view boarding with these people. I watch mine pretty closely for changes in weight (in either direction.) Is there some horsemanship lacking, or is it just a case of love = food?

[SuzieQNutter]

@Simkie

I doubt the cecum has anything to do with it, since cows also have one. A little brush up on bovine anatomy here: https://extension.umn.edu/dairy-nutr…#cecum-1000462

Scribbler, how does anyone watch a horse get fatter and fatter and think it’s okay? I’m not trying to pose a facetious question…genuinely asking what sort of thought process goes into that, from your point of view boarding with these people. I watch mine pretty closely for changes in weight (in either direction.) Is there some horsemanship lacking, or is it just a case of love = food?

I have seen both.

A horse place for dressage where the horses were too fat. It looks normal to them and at a trail ride place where the horses were too skinny but looked normal to them.

[Garythesquirrel]

I had horses in the '70s - '80s (I’m really dating myself here) in California. They ate alfalfa every day all year 'round.

My non-IR horse gets 2 pounds of alfalfa pellets a day. If my IR mare were to eat even a small amount of alfalfa pellets she would be foot sore in just a day or two regardless of her weight. She’s kept on a very strict diet of tested hay.

[Wanderosa]

@Palm Beach

Why would anyone take advice about nutrition and laminitis from a hay dealer?

I wish I could like this post a thousand times.

How would alfalfa be lower in starch than grass hay?

[Scribbler]

@Wanderosa

I wish I could like this post a thousand times.

How would alfalfa be lower in starch than grass hay?

You need to look at the Non structural carbohydrates number on the hay test. Our local hay can easily run up to 25% NSC. Alfalfa typically tests a lot lower than that. It’s just how the plants are built.

[Wanderosa]

@Scribbler

You need to look at the Non structural carbohydrates number on the hay test. Our local hay can easily run up to 25% NSC. Alfalfa typically tests a lot lower than that. It’s just how the plants are built.

Then, it’s not the NSC we should be focused on.

Here’s my take: any time we start messing around hyperfocused on one particular aspect of diet, we cause more problems than we solve. Because we really don’t have a clear understanding of the whole. Remember the low-fat craze? Oprah told us we could eat an entire box of Snack-Well cookies and not get fat because we’d only consumed 2 grams of fat? All we got for our efforts was dry, flaky skin and brittle hair and 20 extra pounds.

NSC is trendy for humans, too. It’s called SCD. The only people I personally know with enough time on their hands to stay on SCD are fitness professionals that work out between 2-4 hours a day. Guess what has happened to every one of them on SCD? THEY GAINED WEIGHT! And a lot of it! Same with “counting macros” that’s so trendy. One girl I know gained 50 lbs. One guy that owns a crossfit gym blogged about how puzzled he was when he fell off the macros wagon for a day and lost 5 lbs despite eating more than a horse. Meanwhile, I eat a balanced diet 95% of the time and occasionally stuff my face with Pop-Tarts and I never gain weight. Hmmm.

My theory is that horses with IR and Cushings are like people with an over abundance of Kopha (one of the 3 Ayurvedic dosha) They lack sufficient digestive activity for some reason. Severely restricting caloric intake and/or the type of foodstuffs in their diet seems like it should work. It obviously doesn’t, because every Cushings horse I know managed this way ends up on meds.

[Scribbler]

@Simkie

I doubt the cecum has anything to do with it, since cows also have one. A little brush up on bovine anatomy here: https://extension.umn.edu/dairy-nutr…#cecum-1000462

Scribbler, how does anyone watch a horse get fatter and fatter and think it’s okay? I’m not trying to pose a facetious question…genuinely asking what sort of thought process goes into that, from your point of view boarding with these people. I watch mine pretty closely for changes in weight (in either direction.) Is there some horsemanship lacking, or is it just a case of love = food?

There’s actually research out there saying many/most ammie horse owners have trouble seeing that their horses are getting obese. Same with dogs. You have a whole barn of plump horses, the obese ones don’t stand put as much.

Healthy weight, looks skinny.

The motivation for the free choice hay is the research that says horses are built to graze almost continuously. This is true. But on small amounts of low nutrition foliage.

The motivation for the alfalfa was that it was meant to be low sugar therefore no laminitis.

This is what l mean about following a narrative without looking at what’s really happening IRL. Or not seeing the whole picture. Or the hay dealer being very compelling.

The horse needs 24/7 hay, the hay can’t cause problems, so you just don’t see the horse bloating up.

Similar things when feet get way out of balance and no one notices.

[S1969]

@Wanderosa

Then, it’s not the NSC we should be focused on.

Here’s my take: any time we start messing around hyperfocused on one particular aspect of diet, we cause more problems than we solve. Because we really don’t have a clear understanding of the whole. Remember the low-fat craze? Oprah told us we could eat an entire box of Snack-Well cookies and not get fat because we’d only consumed 2 grams of fat? All we got for our efforts was dry, flaky skin and brittle hair and 20 extra pounds.

NSC is trendy for humans, too. It’s called SCD. The only people I personally know with enough time on their hands to stay on SCD are fitness professionals that work out between 2-4 hours a day. Guess what has happened to every one of them on SCD? THEY GAINED WEIGHT! And a lot of it! Same with “counting macros” that’s so trendy. One girl I know gained 50 lbs. One guy that owns a crossfit gym blogged about how puzzled he was when he fell off the macros wagon for a day and lost 5 lbs despite eating more than a horse. Meanwhile, I eat a balanced diet 95% of the time and occasionally stuff my face with Pop-Tarts and I never gain weight. Hmmm.

My theory is that horses with IR and Cushings are like people with an over abundance of Kopha (one of the 3 Ayurvedic dosha) They lack sufficient digestive activity for some reason. Severely restricting caloric intake and/or the type of foodstuffs in their diet seems like it should work. It obviously doesn’t, because every Cushings horse I know managed this way ends up on meds.

It’s not the same with horses. Their diet is typically 95% one thing - forage, either hay or pasture. It’s important to “hyperfocus” on that one thing because it’s nearly all they eat. There are only so many things we can control - the quality (as best we can, based on what is available), and the amount. Sometimes we can choose the type - grass types, and/or legumes. Sometimes we have no control over that due to where we live.

There is really nothing useful in comparing human and equine diet.

Also, not sure whether Cushings horses have too much Kopha, but they do have pituitary abnormalities. So, the source of their digestive activity is in their brain.