Free choice hay and laminitis and bad advice

[Scribbler]

Back in the fall, I posted about a new free choice hay option some people in my barn were using. The hay dealer was sourcing “organic low sugar glyphosphate free hay” in 300 lb bales, delivered as needed and installed in specially designed hay nets bolted to the floor of the stall.

The hay was mostly alfalfa grass blends. The alfalfa I guess gets the sugar levels lower, while the grass component guarantees there’s no glyphosphate used. But it’s Special so the price is about $700 a ton. The other hay dealers laugh and say its the same hay from the same growers that everyone sells. I can’t however verify that.

The horses were going through one of these bales in about ten days, or 30 lbs a day.

When I first posted, I said I’d never do this with my horse because she’d pork out and probably get metabolic, and we had the usual discussion here about ulcers versus founder.

Well, I just wanted to update that the folks on this hay have their first laminitis case.

Little, young, stock horse mare has been obese and going short in front all winter, but when she was unable to walk comfortably in the actual arena, they called in a vet. And very very surprised that low sugar hay could cause laminitis.

I also learned that on the hay dealers instructions they had some time ago taken the horses off all vitamin mineral supplements because they were “manufactured.”

Anyhow mare in question is off the all you can eat plan. But not the other horses, though to me they look obese or have wierd fat pockets.

I’ve pointed the owner towards the Equine Cushing’s website and mentioned the supplements they recommend (the zinc and copper).

I’m just left shaking my head.

[S1969]

Is the hay actually tested and proven to be low in sugar?

Of course fat horses can get laminitis just from being fat, though. 30lbs of hay is a lot of hay for easy keepers.

[JB]

We really would need more details. A grass/alfalfa blend is more calories than straight grass, at least most of the time (there are some grass hays I’ve seen in the 1000 cal/lb range). Alfalfa does tend to be lower in sugar and starch than grass hays.

BUT - “low sugar” is not a number, it’s a subjective statement. The industry generally uses < 20% as “low NSC”, and we all know that 18% NSC hay would be a death sentence for most if not all IR Horses if fed as the sole forage.

and maybe the hay really is low sugar, but starch may be way too high and that’s a big deal.

But OMG at the manufactured v/m situation :eek: :eek: :no: :rolleyes:

Not knowing the size of these horses I can’t speak to 30lb/day, especially over Winter up where you are. But if they’re fat, it’s too many calories even if it’s technically not too many pounds, meaning, if it was straight grass then they might not be (that) fat at 30lb/day.

[Palm_Beach]

Why would anyone take advice about nutrition and laminitis from a hay dealer?

[Texarkana]

Scribbler, I’m not sure why you feel the need to share this?

Someone made a management decision that wasn’t right for their horse. You were right, they were wrong.

Ok…

It’s frustrating when we have to sit by passively and watch people do something that isn’t in the best interest of their horses.

But at the same time, I do not think this is any cautionary tale about “free choice hay and laminitis,” as your title may lead some people to believe.

It sounds like you have a hay dealer peddling snake oil in your area. I’m sorry people are falling for it.

[Simkie]

I agree, Tex. No feeding plan is appropriate for EVERY horse. It’s unfortunate that the hay dealer is positioning her product this way, but it’s buyer beware. There are a lot of horses out there that would do well on this sort of plan. That this one didn’t is more a testament to the other not doing enough homework than anything else…

[Garythesquirrel]

And some IR horses can’t tolerate any alfalfa despite low carb/starch levels.

[Bluey]

@Garythesquirrel

And some IR horses can’t tolerate any alfalfa despite low carb/starch levels.

There are also other such horses that thrive on alfalfa.

As our vet warns us, horses with metabolic problems are one founder or colic away just by their metabolic makeup, no matter what we do, what appropriate management protocols we follow.

No telling why the OP’s horse in that story foundered, but probably there is more than one reason, including the sensible one of not putting such horses on free choice feed.

This is one of the times of the year laminitis can happen on horses susceptible to metabolic troubles, so no surprise.

[Scribbler]

The hay dealer presents herself as a specialist on managing IR horses, and has an intense self presentation. She is certainly playing on the current panic about glyphosphate.

She says she tests the hay as low sugar, glyphosphate free, and organic and will cite numbers. I do not think the customers see the hay tests as a matter of course, and I do know that the customers I’ve spoken to can’t read or understand a hay test.

These are smart enough and literate people, but predisposed to the organic natural foods sales pitch made by the hay dealer. When I spoke to the hay dealer out of curiosity, I felt her responses to my queries didn’t line up with what I know about horse nutrition.

Why did I post? Just thought it was an interesting and unusual example of bad management choices, and something I’ve been watching unfold since the fall. And I foresaw something like this happening, though I expected folks to change course before horse actually went metabolic.

The hay dealer, who calls herself an IR specialist, has been seeing this horse every ten days to two weeks, when she brings in a new round bale. She clearly saw nothing wrong that she thought fit to mention.

The hay dealer also sells organic alfalfa pellets for $50 for 50 lbs ( in a reusable burlap bag; conventional alfalfa pellets in a plastic bag are under $15) and that’s what she recommends as a supplement I think.

I realize this situation does not say anything about other kinds of horses and free choice situations.

Perhaps the hay dealer needs to.update her website to say she is successfully creating and managing IR horses. ,

[Texarkana]

Scribbler, thanks for your response. I can respect wanting to discuss this. I just don’t think it should be presented as “free choice hay and laminitis.” I think this falls more under the category of, “how do we assess competence and claims of professionals?” The latter is a continuous problem in every facet of our industry.

[Scribbler]

@Texarkana

Scribbler, thanks for your response. I can respect wanting to discuss this. I just don’t think it should be presented as “free choice hay and laminitis.” I think this falls more under the category of, “how do we assess competence and claims of professionals?” The latter is a continuous problem in every facet of our industry.

Yeah, the competence and claims is the biggie here. Its hard to know how to title things sometimes. Anyone local to me reading this thread would know exactly who the hay dealer is, so I didn’t want a title that blew up in my face.

OK amended to add “and bad advice.”

Anyhow a cautionary tale about how “organic” doesn’t magically fix anything and how taking advice from people who don’t know what they are talking about and only see part of the picture, can be disastrous.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Scribbler

The hay was mostly alfalfa grass blends. The alfalfa I guess gets the sugar levels lower, while the grass component guarantees there’s no glyphosphate used.

Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, is a broad leaf herbicide. Crops which are Roundup Ready are crops which can be treated with glyphosate; the ‘weeds’, or rather unwanted plants, will be killed while the Roundup Ready crop won’t be. Usually, the Roundup Ready crop is a GMO crop resistant to glyphosate.

In an informal Google search, glyphosate will kill both “grasses” as well as alfalfa. The claim as posted above makes no sense and yes, I agree, feeding on the current ‘negative’ feelings toward glyphosate.

[Simkie]

@Texarkana

I think this falls more under the category of, “how do we assess competence and claims of professionals?”

Hear hear.

Are people getting worse at fact checking and critically thinking about what they hear these days? It seems like it, but perhaps it’s one of those things that stands out more as we age. “Kids these days” and all :lol:

We live in an age where information is available SO easily–good info, bad info, all sorts. It’s truly amazing how anyone can become literate in just about anything, with not much more than an internet connection. But as it’s easier, it often seems people eschew doing the research and actually learning, instead choosing to blindly follow. It’s weird.

[Texarkana]

@Simkie the internet also makes it really easy to believe whatever you want to believe. Any opinion a person forms, they can usually find someone, somewhere to corroborate it on the internet.

As an educator, it’s a really tough thing to teach today’s teenagers, and being digital natives, they already have a built-in sense of skepticism about the internet. It’s even harder for the less technology savvy to appreciate that things published on the internet may not be truth.

It makes a lose-lose situation where you tell people to fact check, only to have them come back with “facts” that support an incorrect narrative.

[Scribbler]

@Where'sMyWhite

Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, is a broad leaf herbicide. Crops which are Roundup Ready are crops which can be treated with glyphosate; the ‘weeds’, or rather unwanted plants, will be killed while the Roundup Ready crop won’t be. Usually, the Roundup Ready crop is a GMO crop resistant to glyphosate.

In an informal Google search, glyphosate will kill both “grasses” as well as alfalfa. The claim as posted above makes no sense and yes, I agree, feeding on the current ‘negative’ feelings toward glyphosate.

'Roundup Ready" glyphosphate tolerant GMO alfalfa exists and is currently being grown in the USA. I am not sure on whether it is being grown in Canada where I am yet.

So pure alfalfa imported from the USA could well be GMO Roundup ready. I don’t know how common it is yet.

But yes, glyphosphate will kill the grass pasture so by definition any alfalfa grass mix has not been sprayed.

Around here its hard to get grass hay that is super low sugar, even out of the drybelts, so an alfalfa mix can lower the overall sugar levels.

But alfalfa is high calorie and high protein and not a good choice to free feed a stock.horse in very light work.

[Scribbler]

@Simkie

Hear hear.

Are people getting worse at fact checking and critically thinking about what they hear these days? It seems like it, but perhaps it’s one of those things that stands out more as we age. “Kids these days” and all :lol:

We live in an age where information is available SO easily–good info, bad info, all sorts. It’s truly amazing how anyone can become literate in just about anything, with not much more than an internet connection. But as it’s easier, it often seems people eschew doing the research and actually learning, instead choosing to blindly follow. It’s weird.

In this case, the information is being disseminated by a fairly intense person IRL, but there is enough online that seems to back up her claims.

Interestingly same folks have also adopted a self taught barefoot trimmer who learned far as I can tell from internet videos, and is new to it. No training, no apprenticeship. I see things wrong with his work. But again strong self presentation and his own internet presence. He presents like he’s Pete Ramey inventing the barefoot idea and they adore him.

I wonder if there’s a marketing advantage in the combination of an intense personality and limited knowledge base? Where a more reflective and well educated practitioner would not make such big promises? Or perhaps they work on the scare tactic. The hay dealer works the glyphosphate scare, and the self proclaimed trimmer has a niche in imaginary thrush.

[candyappy]

@Scribbler

Back in the fall, I posted about a new free choice hay option some people in my barn were using. The hay dealer was sourcing “organic low sugar glyphosphate free hay” in 300 lb bales, delivered as needed and installed in specially designed hay nets bolted to the floor of the stall.

The hay was mostly alfalfa grass blends. The alfalfa I guess gets the sugar levels lower, while the grass component guarantees there’s no glyphosphate used. But it’s Special so the price is about $700 a ton. The other hay dealers laugh and say its the same hay from the same growers that everyone sells. I can’t however verify that.

The horses were going through one of these bales in about ten days, or 30 lbs a day.

When I first posted, I said I’d never do this with my horse because she’d pork out and probably get metabolic, and we had the usual discussion here about ulcers versus founder.

Well, I just wanted to update that the folks on this hay have their first laminitis case.

Little, young, stock horse mare has been obese and going short in front all winter, but when she was unable to walk comfortably in the actual arena, they called in a vet. And very very surprised that low sugar hay could cause laminitis.

I also learned that on the hay dealers instructions they had some time ago taken the horses off all vitamin mineral supplements because they were “manufactured.”

Anyhow mare in question is off the all you can eat plan. But not the other horses, though to me they look obese or have wierd fat pockets.

I’ve pointed the owner towards the Equine Cushing’s website and mentioned the supplements they recommend (the zinc and copper).

I’m just left shaking my head.

I really don’t think it has anything to do with the hay being supposedly " low sugar".

Feeding anything free choice to the wrong horse will give you the same results. I have had many horses who could have access to hay 24/7 and stay at a desirable weight with no problems and some that would be a blimp in a heartbeat. They just don’t need that much food to maintain their weight.

Free choice hay was just not common in most places 20 years ago. Ulcers were uncommon and so were all the obesity related issues we see now that the hay 24/7 is pushed. Not only are obesity issues rampant but ulcers are too.

Kind of like a person with diabetes who freely eats the " sugar free candy" and wonders why their blood sugar is 400. Sugar free candy is still high in carbs.

[Scribbler]

@candyappy

I really don’t think it has anything to do with the hay being supposedly " low sugar".

Feeding anything free choice to the wrong horse will give you the same results. I have had many horses who could have access to hay 24/7 and stay at a desirable weight with no problems and some that would be a blimp in a heartbeat. They just don’t need that much food to maintain their weight.

Free choice hay was just not common in most places 20 years ago. Ulcers were uncommon and so were all the obesity related issues we see now that the hay 24/7 is pushed. Not only are obesity issues rampant but ulcers are too.

Kind of like a person with diabetes who freely eats the " sugar free candy" and wonders why their blood sugar is 400. Sugar free candy is still high in carbs.

Totally. I think this situation is a result of believing a particular narrative and not paying attention to what was actually happening IRL.

Owners were sold a story that they were safe because hay was low sugar. Missed the memo that obesity itself messes up the metabolism. I mean people can get obese and diabetic on a high fat diet. After that they are hypersensitive to sugar. But you don’t need to est s lot of sugar to become obese and diabetic.

This did not happen over night. Mare went from moderately overweight at the start of this feeding plan to very overweight to scary obese over the course of maybe 8 months. Horse was going short in front for months until she actually showed unable to walk in the arena.

The horses are all lightly worked in barns with small runouts, get some run and buck turnout several times a week for an hour or so.

Some of the other horses just stay parked in front of the bale all the time. You can see a ring of poop around the bale because they don’t move. They get stocked up too. They don’t even take a break to wander out in the paddock and look around.

Anyhow our ‘natural foods store’ has aisles of ‘organic’ junk food that has the exact same nutrition information as regular junk food, chips and cheesies and every type of candy. Is crazy. But clearly a profit center in a way just selling bulk grains and tofu is not!

[candyappy]

@Scribbler

Totally. I think this situation is a result of believing a particular narrative and not paying attention to what was actually happening IRL.

This did not happen over night. Mare went from moderately overweight at the start of this feeding plan to very overweight to scary obese over the course of maybe 8 months. Horse was going short in front for months until she actually showed unable to walk in the arena.

The horses are all lightly worked in barns with small runouts, get some run and buck turnout several times a week for an hour or so.

Some of the other horses just stay parked in front of the bale all the time. You can see a ring of poop around the bale because they don’t move. They get stocked up too. They don’t even take a break to wander out in the paddock and look around.

Big reason I never feed where they would have it 24/7. I think my horses did best on hay 2-3x a day and out 24/7 on a acre or two of grass/ weed mix where they walked and looked for stuff to nibble on.

To some horses a hay buffet is just a death sentence and many owners have no clue.

[hank]

@Scribbler

I wonder if there’s a marketing advantage in the combination of an intense personality and limited knowledge base? Where a more reflective and well educated practitioner would not make such big promises? Or perhaps they work on the scare tactic. The hay dealer works the glyphosphate scare, and the self proclaimed trimmer has a niche in imaginary thrush.

There is certainly an advantage in being an inexperienced, undereducated, newbie trimmer. The advantage is…they religiously believe what they are selling.
A few years of failures will cool the ardour, and exposure to other methods will prove the ignorance. Too bad many horses will have to suffer in the meantime.