Free lease gone bad

[Scribbler]

@blitzkrieg

I agree. I’m not sure where the bashing of BO comes from. Her FB ad was non-drama, she holds legal ownership at this point so that’s not the issue, and she shouldn’t be expected to just let it go because the pony isn’t worth much on the market. It’s a beloved lesson horse to the farm, cherished by students and BO. If someone stole my old OTTB, I’d do just as BO has. I don’t care if she’s not worth much, that’s my horse and I’d lose money getting her back in a heartbeat. This poor pony is lucky to have someone this adamant to protect her and bring her home.

I’m not bashing the trainer for feeling ownership of the pony. I’m not disagreeing that OP appears to have lied on this forum. I would never say college education makes you honest. We would have no stock market fraud, absconding lawyers, or crooked accountants if that were so.

I am also not arguing that the trainer probably can provide a better home for pony.

However the question of who provides a better home is immaterial legally in the case of a horse. Ownership goes to the person with the bill of sale. Though we may feel a horse is family, legally they are a possession like a truck and not a child custody case.

My main point though is that this is probably a civil case before it is a criminal case. In civil cases you need to pay lawyers to sort things out before you can get law enforcement. So far there is no evidence of either party doing so.

And note that while a retaining fee for a lawyer might be $2000, you are probably looking at over $10,000 in the end. I don’t know too many lesson programs that have the spare cash to go down that kind of legal rabbit hole.

In other words, in such cases civil litigation is generally out of the question financially for either party.

I don’t know what police have or haven’t done, but it’s clear they haven’t arrested OP despite her admission she has the pony.

Also the pony was either a giveaway or on free lease. In neither case is board ever paid. If I have a horse on free lease for my exclusive use for 5 years and owner wants her back, I can’t say “pay me 5 years back board before I give her up.” If anything I would offer to buy the horse from the owner.

So since the claim for back board is spurious and the pony is not actually abandoned if OP is asking for it back, I’m unsure whether the lein that transferred ownership to the trainer is 100 % legitimate.

As far as there being a damages claim against the pony stemming from a lesson incident, in such cases the action is taken against the entity with the best insurance. The pony is in a lesson program that hopefully has proper insurance and under the direction of the trainer. There would be no reason to name the owner of the pony, at least if she has no insurance or assets. And indeed trainer probably acted and spoke as if she was the owner at that point.

People often free lease their horses to lesson programs and you do not hear of such absentee owners getting sued because of an accident that happened when they were hundreds of miles away.

Anyhow my overall point here is just that once the pony is gone, there isn’t much the trainer can do other than make noise on social media.

As I said, there actually is much less legal redress out there than you might think, especially for situations with low dollar value but high emotional investment. We live in such an apparently legalistic and law driven society that it’s often surprising how few legal remedies there are for disputes that are primarily interpersonal.

[Denali6298]

Scribbler, the BO is the legal owner of the pony now. The BO isn’t going after the OP in a civil suit, she pressed charges. That’s what you keep missing. The OP at the time of her starting this thread was no longer the legal owner of the pony and this IS a criminal matter.

Also I think when the BO stated she gave the OP three chances to rectify the situation civilly, she meant gave the OP a chance to do the right thing. Not that she filed a civil suit suing for back board.

[Gestalt]

From what I read in Trotapony’s posts, she has already done the civil case, and she was successful. Now that she can prove she is the rightful owner of the pony is where the criminal case comes in. Remember the OP has STOLEN the pony from Trotapony’s farm.

[trubandloki]

@blitzkrieg

I agree. I’m not sure where the bashing of BO comes from. Her FB ad was non-drama, she holds legal ownership at this point so that’s not the issue, and she shouldn’t be expected to just let it go because the pony isn’t worth much on the market. It’s a beloved lesson horse to the farm, cherished by students and BO. If someone stole my old OTTB, I’d do just as BO has. I don’t care if she’s not worth much, that’s my horse and I’d lose money getting her back in a heartbeat. This poor pony is lucky to have someone this adamant to protect her and bring her home.

@Hawkridge

^^^^^ this X 1000

What they said!

If someone dared to take my old retired not sound horse you can bet I would spend more than he is worth (because he has no financial value) to get him back.

[Scribbler]

@Gestalt

From what I read in Trotapony’s posts, she has already done the civil case, and she was successful. Now that she can prove she is the rightful owner of the pony is where the criminal case comes in. Remember the OP has STOLEN the pony from Trotapony’s farm.

Yes, I get all that.

My question is whether the facts the trainer presented in order to put a lien on the pony, and then auction pony to herself, would hold up under legal scrutiny.

The claim for back board owing on a free lease horse is spurious, IMHO. The claim the pony was abandoned doesn’t hold up if the OP was wanting pony back.

If the facts set out to get the lien are untrue then the ownership transfer could be questioned.

I can see why the trainer went that route for a quick way to get ownership papers. I can see why trainer thinks she morally and emotionally should be the owner.

But I am not sure that lien process as described is entirely legit and if that is the only ownership documents trainer has, there would be room for a legal challenge.

Anyhow that’s the part I find technically really interesting. Also the part that would give a clear resolution to the case.

But no one is going to pay the insane amount of legal fees to get that question answered.

[RockinHorse]

@Scribbler

But I am not sure that lien process as described is entirely legit and if that is the only ownership documents trainer has, there would be room for a legal challenge.
.

Then the correct thing to do would be to pursue this legally or drop it. Stealing the pony is not one of the correct options.

[Denali6298]

@Scribbler

Yes, I get all that.

My question is whether the facts the trainer presented in order to put a lien on the pony, and then auction pony to herself, would hold up under legal scrutiny.

The claim for back board owing on a free lease horse is spurious, IMHO. The claim the pony was abandoned doesn’t hold up if the OP was wanting pony back.

If the facts set out to get the lien are untrue then the ownership transfer could be questioned.

I can see why the trainer went that route for a quick way to get ownership papers. I can see why trainer thinks she morally and emotionally should be the owner.

But I am not sure that lien process as described is entirely legit and if that is the only ownership documents trainer has, there would be room for a legal challenge.

Anyhow that’s the part I find technically really interesting. Also the part that would give a clear resolution to the case.

But no one is going to pay the insane amount of legal fees to get that question answered.

In my experience, granted this was 20 years ago, getting Troop K to take action over trespassing and harassment to livestock with proof is a PIA. That is why I think the BOs claims are legitimate.

[Scribbler]

@RockinHorse

Then the correct thing to do would be to pursue this legally or drop it. Stealing the pony is not one of the correct options.

No, it’s not correct. But it’s expedient.

Once the OP has the pony, it’s up to the trainer to prove that she really has legal ownership. Obviously the police are not exactly being very active here.

These kind of free lease gone wrong situations are just nasty all around, and in general if the original owner wants the horse back badly enough and comes to get it in the middle of the night, the trainer/leaser never sees the horse again.

[RockinHorse]

@Scribbler so you advise expediency over legality?

[Denali6298]

@Scribbler

No, it’s not correct. But it’s expedient.

Once the OP has the pony, it’s up to the trainer to prove that she really has legal ownership. Obviously the police are not exactly being very active here.

These kind of free lease gone wrong situations are just nasty all around, and in general if the original owner wants the horse back badly enough and comes to get it in the middle of the night, the trainer/leaser never sees the horse again.

How is getting a warrant not being active? Clearly the police felt that the BO has enough proof to request a warrant. Your assuming it was a free lease situation because of what the OP said, who has already been proven to lie. Maybe it started as a free lease. I bet the document the OP has about the sixth month thing was written up after all this. Explains why she was the only one to sign it.

Honestly I don’t think you will be satisfied until the BO comes on here with documentation and the you can have the added benefit of chastising her further for putting the OP on trial here. Clearly in your eyes, the BO can’t win.

[RubyTuesday]

@Scribbler

I’m not bashing the trainer for feeling ownership of the pony. I’m not disagreeing that OP appears to have lied on this forum. I would never say college education makes you honest. We would have no stock market fraud, absconding lawyers, or crooked accountants if that were so.

I am also not arguing that the trainer probably can provide a better home for pony.

However the question of who provides a better home is immaterial legally in the case of a horse. Ownership goes to the person with the bill of sale. Though we may feel a horse is family, legally they are a possession like a truck and not a child custody case.

My main point though is that this is probably a civil case before it is a criminal case. In civil cases you need to pay lawyers to sort things out before you can get law enforcement. So far there is no evidence of either party doing so.

And note that while a retaining fee for a lawyer might be $2000, you are probably looking at over $10,000 in the end. I don’t know too many lesson programs that have the spare cash to go down that kind of legal rabbit hole.

In other words, in such cases civil litigation is generally out of the question financially for either party.

I don’t know what police have or haven’t done, but it’s clear they haven’t arrested OP despite her admission she has the pony.

Also the pony was either a giveaway or on free lease. In neither case is board ever paid. If I have a horse on free lease for my exclusive use for 5 years and owner wants her back, I can’t say “pay me 5 years back board before I give her up.” If anything I would offer to buy the horse from the owner.

So since the claim for back board is spurious and the pony is not actually abandoned if OP is asking for it back, I’m unsure whether the lein that transferred ownership to the trainer is 100 % legitimate.

As far as there being a damages claim against the pony stemming from a lesson incident, in such cases the action is taken against the entity with the best insurance. The pony is in a lesson program that hopefully has proper insurance and under the direction of the trainer. There would be no reason to name the owner of the pony, at least if she has no insurance or assets. And indeed trainer probably acted and spoke as if she was the owner at that point.

People often free lease their horses to lesson programs and you do not hear of such absentee owners getting sued because of an accident that happened when they were hundreds of miles away.

Anyhow my overall point here is just that once the pony is gone, there isn’t much the trainer can do other than make noise on social media.

As I said, there actually is much less legal redress out there than you might think, especially for situations with low dollar value but high emotional investment. We live in such an apparently legalistic and law driven society that it’s often surprising how few legal remedies there are for disputes that are primarily interpersonal.

Yep. And one of tne reasons courts like Judge Judy and the People’s Court exist is because there just isn’t the financial backing for these types of situations.

[yaya]

@Scribbler

The claim for back board owing on a free lease horse is spurious, IMHO. The claim the pony was abandoned doesn’t hold up if the OP was wanting pony back.

Just because the OP wants the pony back now doesn’t mean the pony wasn’t abandoned way back when.

[Denali6298]

I would think wrt the OP admitting here that she has the horse would require another warrant. Or would the Chronical just give up her name?

[Scribbler]

@Denali6298

How is getting a warrant not being active? Clearly the police felt that the BO has enough proof to request a warrant. Your assuming it was a free lease situation because of what the OP said, who has already been proven to lie. Maybe it started as a free lease. I bet the document the OP has about the sixth month thing was written up after all this. Explains why she was the only one to sign it.

Honestly I don’t think you will be satisfied until the BO comes on here with documentation and the you can have the added benefit of chastising her further for putting the OP on trial here. Clearly in your eyes, the BO can’t win.

I’m not advising anything.

I think both parties have done things that might not stand up to legal scrutiny. I honestly don’t know how ownership of this pony would be awarded. I’m not asking for more documentation and I’m not a lawyer.

And no I don’t think the BO is going to get the pony back. That’s not a statement on her character or her moral right to the pony. I am not even saying she doesn’t deserve the pony.

Just being realistic.

And pointing out that true legal solutions back up by the courts and law enforcement are actually more expensive and harder to get in these kinds of situations than we would hope.

If the OP had stolen a truck registered to trainer and admitted it online, I think the response by LE would be much prompter.

[Mondo]

Scribbler - are you a lawyer? Because you make some erroneous assumptions again, which leads me to believe that you are not. You are just guessing and assuming.

“People often free lease their horses to lesson programs and you do not hear of such absentee owners getting sued because of an accident that happened when they were hundreds of miles away.” Patently false. In these types of cases, the legal owner of the horse, regardless of any lease arrangement, who the trainer was, who was present at the time of the accident, is ALWAYS named in a suit. Always. “Who has the best insurance…” What a ridiculous statement. All the relevant insurance companies are also parties to such a suit. I am not a lawyer, but I am a former insurance broker and have participated in numerous liability suits.

Stop guessing please.

Thank you, Denali, for being a voice of reason.

[Denali6298]

A warrant was waiting on a judge the week this thread started. How is that not prompt?

[RegentLion]

Here are some things from the Trainer’s post that jumped out at me and make me think she was trying to do the right thing.

Also, according to her post the OP’s Mother was also involved. Wondering what mommy has to say.

The OP has a history of non-payment, both with other horses and the pony.

Trainer compensated OP for use of her other horses for lessons AND never demanded ALL expenses from pony, just some.

Trainer was under the impression she OWNED the horse. Who knows what the OP thought. Nowhere does the trainer say she thought she was free leasing. So I think it’s not surprising that she then said “ok if I don’t own the pony I want board.”

It does not sound like a free lease situation AT ALL except to the OP, who as we know is playing fast and loose with facts and has a history of using others, non payment, and apparently theft.

So Scribbler, I think you can let the “free lease” drum you’re banging fall silent.

From the Trainer’s post:

-My boarding contract states that after ninty days of nonpayment I can legally take your horse for back money owed. I have A signed contract, not once but twice by this girl.

-When the pony came back I received one payment for 75$ of the agreed 200$ a month payment. That was in 2009

-She told me and everyone else that she gave me the horse , she kept and boarded four other horses at my farm from the time she graduated to December of last year, she lived in my home and worked for me, and when I used her other horses for lessons I paid her by the lesson for each time they were used , which I have documentation of.

-She never once in the nine years paid any attention to this pony one time out of the scope of her job , never a brush or a carrot.

-When she was tossed out in December for not doing her job, she never wanted the pony back untill I questioned her about the balance she owes me on the horses she left with .

• I told her after she said she would be back to get the pony that if she was now claiming to own her for all these years then she needed to pay me at least some of the back expense for the pony.

-I followed the Connecticut state statute and put a Lein in this pony for back board owed, since she was now claiming ownership. The Lein went through and was legally filed with the court . She was given an opportunity to come and bid at an auction for the pony, she did not show up or attemp to work with me at all. The auction resulted in my legal ownership of the pony, as of February 28, 2018.

-She is now being charged criminally. I was fully prepared to handle this matter civilly in court, as I have documentation to back up everything I have stated here.

[Scribbler]

Well, if the criminal charges go through and stick, resulting in the return of the pony to the trainer, then I was clearly wrong about the laissez-faire attitude of LE.

Usually the first thing police do is talk to the person who is the subject of a complaint and ask what’s going on.

In our jurisdiction, the crown doesn’t lay charges unless there is a 99.9 % chance they will win in court. In our jurisdiction if the OP could spin a story that muddied the water and made it look like the ownership was genuinely in dispute, I think LE would back off and tell trainer to pursue it in civil court first ($$$).

Now I don’t know how this will play out in Connecticut. But since others have reported that OP is living and working in plain sight in the same town, I would expect an arrest sooner rather than later if LE are going to act.

Anyhow, if there is decisive action by LE , I will be the first to say trainer must have had compelling legal evidence.

[Callista17]

Where’s this warrant? I did get very bored looking at the FB pages, so maybe she has posted pics of the 20 something year old in handcuffs.
I hope at least one of them come back to start updating soon, or advise us when Judge Judy will be airing.

[Scribbler]

@RubyTuesday

Yep. And one of tne reasons courts like Judge Judy and the People’s Court exist is because there just isn’t the financial backing for these types of situations.

And they make for great watching in regards to how much emotion can be invested in low cash value conflicts, and how much the legal aspect is a proxy for emotional conflicts.