French v English saddles. Ae we H/J riders being duped?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=TheBrownHorse;8314914]
I may have missed this, but what part of Nor Cal are you in?

JRD makes great saddles. I owned one that I grew out of (physically) but I have a good friend who works for them who came out, fitted it and flocked it to my horse. The total plus was that it fit him like a glove, and at the time, really fit me too. [/QUOTE]

Not everyone has had such a great experience with the owner of JRD.

This is not so single the guy out. It is to issue a big, fat “caveat emptor” to everyone paying someone to design a saddle for them. It really helps if you bring some knowledge to the table so that you can help trouble shoot a bad design or bad fit before the saddle gets made and someone will lose some money if it doesn’t fit.

[greywithchrome]

Countys are amazing. My friend had one for 10+ years and it made 99% of the horses she rode happy. Plus, it was SUPER comfortable.

[tisor]

This is a lot of great info thanks everyone! I’m in SF, the horse is in Walnut Creek (just added my location to my profile, didn’t realize it was;t already on there). So I have access to all the Sonoma/Petaluma/Santa Rosa businesses as well as the Woodside etc businesses and really even up to Davis.

I’ll try contacting those agnostic reps.

MVP 1. re what do I want and what am I willing to do? I want a butet that fits my very large, long withered animal but get that i can’t have that. I’ll sacrifice my comfort over his. I’ve got THREE saddles now in the way taking up my cash flow until I’ve tried them all.

The horse is 7 and JUST started in training (see any threads from me and you’ll see 4 years of dramatic injuries and rehabs) so he’s going to still fill out and develop topline.

Here’s a photo of him before he started back into training. https://www.facebook.com/theyardequinecenter/photos/t.1231054958/10153178217033159/?type=3&theater

He’s half TH and half warmblood and has the TH sensitivity.

I’ve just rented a thermal impression pad to help narrow my choice but would still just love to have someone out for a half day to really evaluate.

I have been riding him in a M Luc Childeric which i love but I think pinches him at the base of the wither, and also a devoucoux which I think he really likes though i love less (but could live with it) I have a used Childeric w MW tree on the way, a county AND a black country. He’s not wide though. he’s 17.3 but actually somewhat narrow which I think can be seen here https://www.facebook.com/maryjo.tisor/videos/10207502365577212/?pnref=story

I guess I’d like a good starter saddle so that I can A. stop bothering the trainer for one of hers and B. make sure he’s as comfortable as possible while finally learning his job.

Re french v english. I think I was thinking more about foam v wool flocking and narrow twists. I didn’t know about the flat back thing - which my horse does NOT have.

[norcalammie]

My horse is a TB/Holsteiner cross with like your horse very sensitive to saddle fit. My horse looks large about 17 hands but wears a MN County Stabilizer now (have had for 12 years!) and I have a new County on order (just because my husband said he would buy me a saddle for my birthday) - due to arrive next month!
I had several saddle fitters out and I tried multiple saddles. Some fitters wanted to pad up everything to make a saddle fit and some really worked with minimal padding. When we tried the Stabilizer on him he totally changed his attitude and was a happy horse - had tried about 6 saddles on him that day so the change was noticeable.
If I was you I would contact the various reps and see what they can do for you and what it would cost to have them come out. I too am in Walnut Creek but my horse is in Brentwood now.

[FineAlready]

To answer your question, OP, yes, I think the h/j crowd is behind the curve on saddle fit. I say this having done the hunters for most of my life and then switching to dressage within the last two years.

Dressage folks do focus more on saddle fit and my experience has been that dressage saddles are far more customizable than any jumping saddle I’ve ever seen (and I currently own three jumping saddles…).

My advice is definitely to stay away from the French foam saddles. Anyone who truly thinks those saddles provide an exemplary fit, particularly over time (with the horse’s muscling changing, etc.) is kind of living in a fantasy world.

[tisor]

Thanks! I’ll try this used County that’s coming (TODAY even!) and see how that goes. If I can ID one that’s working out of some used ones (most french brands i can locate at the barn and like i said, i already put a butet on him once and it looked like a jockey’s saddle, sat like it too) then I can call a rep out. I just don;t want to have a rep appt for every possible brand

[RugBug]

@tisor;8314067

Not sure what these multiple posts are you’re referring to. And naturally I’m speaking of my own experience in California and perhaps saying "no one’ is an exaggeration, but this is my experience from everyone i do know and the barns where I have ridden and the trainers I’ve met here and what I’ve generally seen at shows and also the questioning looks when i mention a saddle brand such as county or black country.

I’m on the Central Coast of CA and we get both County and Black Country Reps in our very small, very backyard type barn. I can’t imagine having difficulty finding a rep for either in the Bay Area, that you have listed as your location.

Sure, I can see not a lot of people in H/J knowing Black Country, it tends to be a more eventer centric label, but I know plenty of people with Countys.

There are people that drink the certain brand kool-aid at their barn, but there are also people that make a specific choice for their brand. Lots of people have very little knowledge about fitting a saddle and refer to someone who may not have much more, who also gets perks and it becomes a conflict of interest.

BUT, I would never make an statement that one type (wool vs. foam) is the only answer for every horse. Don’t assume that just because someone has a french saddle on their horse that they are following a crowd and haven’t thought through their decision.

[tisor]

Renn, my first was a Crump too! No knee rolls, totally flat. I remember padding u the back ends of these saddles with SPONGES to “break them in” on big withered horses. This, at the time, felt like an advanced move.

Thanks for the saddle fitter contact info. I actually did write to robyn and heard back that she wouldn’t be available until after today. That was long enough ago that it ruled her out for me. That’s how long I’ve been trying to locate someone! I’ve just written back to her of course now

[tisor]

[QUOTE=jaybird660;8314946]
We sell a load of saddles, particularly Black Country, on the west coast. I think those customers come to us because they are less available locally and they come to us. I’m happy to answer questions or chat with you if you want to email or call.[/QUOTE]

Jay I’m on your site now and will be reaching out!

[mvp]

OP, I can’t see the picture of your horse’s back. That would tell me a lot.

So give us your wish list in a saddle. The top would feel like a Butet? In the twist, only or also in the forwardness/straightness of the flap? And do you want a long balance point in the seat or more of a bucket that puts you in one place? I consider original Butets to have relatively unpuffy knee rolls by modern standards. Do you want that kind of minimalism?

And for the horse, you need something for a long wither. It’s tall, too? The horse is narrow, or not narrow but slab sided? Does this horse have a back that’s appreciably lower where he widens out?

County is a good guess, though I’d all the designs like the Stablizer and Conquest (my favorite of theirs) quite different than their deeper, more recent designs.

And if you can ride in “little”-- a 16.5", I have a new County Eclipse that might work for you. The top half of the saddle might feel more like a Butet in it’s balance than will a Stabilizer. PM me if you want. A Conquest won’t look the part with its round cantle. And the long-femur people who ride with short stirrups won’t like the rather straight flap. But I dig the forward balance point of that saddle. It’s a sleeper that more people should test-drive.

[mvp]

Oh, and since you are in California:

If I had determination, balls and money, I’d haul my horse down to Paul Selvey/Superior Saddlery in SoCal and have him make me a saddle from the tree up. Honest to God, the guy will put saddle skeletons raw on your horse’s naked back and do a truly custom job for both of you. A while back, a COTHer did this and posted pictures. Try a search.

[Dramapony_misty]

Have you checked out the Pessoa Heritage saddles (available in smooth leather or grippy covered leather) or the A/O AMS? They all have the exchangeable gullets, are wool-flocked, and even have the Alto panel option that is made for horses with high withers. They’re much less expensive than many of the other brands mentioned here, but are fabulous quality, IMO.

[akhunterrider]

I personally love the ride of the French saddles, but they will not in a million years fit the shape of my horse’s back. While English made saddles are less familiar to me, I know it’s what I will need to look for, unless I do something like Duett, to fit my horse’s back. He needs a more hoop shaped tree. I live in Kansas with not a single saddle fitter around. There are saddle fitters that come out this way a couple times a year, but not on a regular basis. So long distance fitting is something I will likely need to do.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=FineAlready;8315396]
To answer your question, OP, yes, I think the h/j crowd is behind the curve on saddle fit. I say this having done the hunters for most of my life and then switching to dressage within the last two years.

Dressage folks do focus more on saddle fit and my experience has been that dressage saddles are far more customizable than any jumping saddle I’ve ever seen (and I currently own three jumping saddles…).

My advice is definitely to stay away from the French foam saddles. Anyone who truly thinks those saddles provide an exemplary fit, particularly over time (with the horse’s muscling changing, etc.) is kind of living in a fantasy world.[/QUOTE]

I think Dressage saddles are easier to fit since they are a straight flap vs a forward one.

The French saddles also come with wool flocking. The adjust-ability is something that can be done if it’s wool.

I have had foam panels that when they went bad were replaced by CWD at no cost. I thought that was pretty nice. But do prefer wool.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=mvp;8315445]
Oh, and since you are in California:

If I had determination, balls and money, I’d haul my horse down to Paul Selvey/Superior Saddlery in SoCal and have him make me a saddle from the tree up. Honest to God, the guy will put saddle skeletons raw on your horse’s naked back and do a truly custom job for both of you. A while back, a COTHer did this and posted pictures. Try a search.[/QUOTE]

I have had Paul rework a few off the rack saddles for me with wool and changed out tree points etc… He has made several Dressage saddles for some friends.

He was minutes away from me when he was in Baldwin Park. Don’t know where he is located now. There is a guy in Norco, CA that worked for him which I have had him rework some saddles too.

[IPEsq]

I’d bet the Childerics are not going to have enough wither clearance for that horse. Ask me how I know. (Sigh, I love my Childeric). And you may need a more banana shaped saddle than the model M anyway. Maybe look at one of the newer Devocoux in a medium wide if you don’t like the County.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Did you ever wonder why they call them english saddles when the best ones are made in Germany and France? Maybe the British started riding that style of saddle first? Who invented the “english saddle?” At least we know how western saddles go their name.