French v English saddles. Ae we H/J riders being duped?

[tisor]

I’m sure this is controversial but here goes.

In my search to find a well fitting saddle for my large withered beast, I’m finding that all of the research, pretty much ALL of it, claims that flocking other than wools isn’t really customizable. Furthermore that the twist on most French saddles, while comfortable for the rider, is simply too narrow for most horses.

I can’t even find a fitter in Northern California that isn’t a rep for a brand.

Are the dressage and eventing riders ahead of us on saddle fit?

Why is it that so many barns seem associated with one brand of saddle and all of the riders there have saddles “custom fit” to that brand yet the trainers all still ride with their own saddles and not the ones fit to those horses?

I’ve been looking into the english saddles, namely country and black country, yet not a soul in the HJ world uses them on the west coast.

It seems to me that woeful little attention is being paid saddle fit vs style especially given the complexity of a horse’s back and that we are sitting on it.

I’d love to hear some thoughts on this…

[sp56]

1. Marketing. French saddles have spent A LOT on marketing and give trainers many perks (free saddles, jackets, etc) for having clients purchase their saddles.

2. Convenience. It’s much easier to have someone come out and “fit” a saddle to a rider and horse than it is to go through the whole tack store (or order and send back countless saddles).

3. Education. Most people just don’t know, or care to know.

That being said, I do think that people can get a little obsessive over saddle fit. Yes some horses are very sensitive, and yes it does matter, but years ago everyone rode in essentially the same saddle and padded it up the wazoo. I think there’s something in between the obsessive saddle fit that we’re marketed and the off-the-rack saddle that doesn’t fit.

I’ve had a lot of luck with Stubben, I have to say. They semi-customize the saddle and flock it with wool (not a fan of foam personally). It has wither clearance regardless of tree size which is nice. I ride in the saddle that was made for the horse as long as I can fit myself in it. And for the horses that come without saddles, I’ve found that the saddle I had fit to my jumper ends up fitting quite a few other horses well enough.

[PNWjumper]

@tisor;8313704

I’ve been looking into the english saddles, namely country and black country, yet not a soul in the HJ world uses them on the west coast.

This is not the first time you’ve posted this and I guess I don’t understand. I live on the West Coast. I ride in Counties. I have a lot of friends from Cali through Canada who also live on the west coast, show h/j, and ride in Counties. I also know folks who ride in Black Countries.

I agree that some of the big name brands have done a bang-up job promoting their saddles, but by no means do they “own” the west coast.

I know that sometimes groups of people do things together (like falling into the sell-a-saddle-to-my-clients/friends-and-get-a-free-one game), so maybe it’s time to expand your group of friends or at least look outside of those people before declaring that no one on the west coast does or does not do something?

[rizzodm]

Have you tried contacting Robyn? She does a great job and has a variety of used saddles that she will bring for you to try.

http://www.advancedequinesaddlefit.com/

[nelson]

tisor -

You mentioned that you have a big-withered horse. This is a little off your topic, but I too have one with large withers. I ended up with an Amerigo CC (so, Italian, not French or English!), which has a banana shaped tree that is designed for just that type of horse. It is also wonderfully comfortable for me. It’s worth a look, if you have not already tried one.

Good luck!

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=sp56;8313719]

1. Marketing. French saddles have spent A LOT on marketing and give trainers many perks (free saddles, jackets, etc) for having clients purchase their saddles.

2. Convenience. It’s much easier to have someone come out and “fit” a saddle to a rider and horse than it is to go through the whole tack store (or order and send back countless saddles).

3. Education. Most people just don’t know, or care to know.

That being said, I do think that people can get a little obsessive over saddle fit. Yes some horses are very sensitive, and yes it does matter, but years ago everyone rode in essentially the same saddle and padded it up the wazoo. I think there’s something in between the obsessive saddle fit that we’re marketed and the off-the-rack saddle that doesn’t fit.

I’ve had a lot of luck with Stubben, I have to say. They semi-customize the saddle and flock it with wool (not a fan of foam personally). It has wither clearance regardless of tree size which is nice. I ride in the saddle that was made for the horse as long as I can fit myself in it. And for the horses that come without saddles, I’ve found that the saddle I had fit to my jumper ends up fitting quite a few other horses well enough.[/QUOTE]

4. Trend

[Scratch_N_Dent]

Remember that not everyone has a huge number of different types of saddles at their disposal to try; some of us are far removed from the hot horse places. It is much easier to try out what nice saddles our friends, coach etc. are using and see if you like it and can get one that fits your horse well. Along the same lines, saddle fitters often not willing to travel 5-6 hours for one horse.

I was the only person in our barn of 30+ horses (and many more riders) to try several different types of H/J saddles on my horse and made sure I knew all I could about saddle fit, then beg a rep to drive all the way to see me. Thankfully he was hoping to convince my coach to use his brand so he was willing to travel.

I agree with sp56, there is a happy medium between assuming all saddles fit all horses and having a saddle refitted every 6 months.

[tisor]

Rhizzodm:

Thanks for the suggestion I’ll see if she’s one that I’ve contacted and reach out of not.

Nelson:

I’ll look into an Amerigo as well, thanks!

Scratch n dent:

I’m also having to order them online to ship to me to try on my horse. I’m just so surprised at how hard it is.

Thankfully I don’t have a trainer that is insisting on one brand over another so I don’t have that, I just can not seem to find a fitter that isn’t a brand rep.

PNWJumper from Washington:

Not sure what these multiple posts are you’re referring to. And naturally I’m speaking of my own experience in California and perhaps saying "no one’ is an exaggeration, but this is my experience from everyone i do know and the barns where I have ridden and the trainers I’ve met here and what I’ve generally seen at shows and also the questioning looks when i mention a saddle brand such as county or black country.

And I’m posting this as a question of others’ experience, stating that it’s been mine. I think an appropriate answer would be “that hasn’t been my experience in Washington” and then followed by something helpful such as the contact info of a brand agnostic fitter since you know your way around these other brands so well, as does your obviously far greater social and riding circle.

[Renn_aissance]

You’re gonna get mvp in here in a minute- starting this kind of thread is, for her, the equivalent of opening a can of tuna in front of a cat.

I think plenty of people end up falling into the trap of lack of education + “this is what everybody else is doing,” sometimes with a side order of “if X number of clients buy Y brand, trainer gets a new saddle.” I was actually just talking with my trainer about that not too long ago, as a saddle fitting clinic (done by an independent party) would be an excellent educational opportunity for our students. Right now we have a bunch of people who once sat in somebody’s Butet (or whatever) and they really liked it, so that’s the saddle they bought, and not knowing any better, for all they know, it fits. The brands that have really good marketing can capitalize on that very easily, but so can the brands that don’t- we had a spate of Dover Circuit Elite Eq saddles in the barn that got there the same way. Both of those are good saddles for the purpose intended, but I’m pulling them out as examples because both of them happen to fit a certain type of horse and really dramatically not fit another type. That’s where the education bit comes in. How do you know unless you’re taught, or seek out the information to learn?

I don’t think it’s a French vs. English thing. I think it’s an education thing.

My first saddle was a Crosby. When I was a wee munchkin, the lesson barn had us all in Crump Prix de Saute and Smith-Worthington saddles. But! For my horse, I don’t love what those companies are producing now. For my horse, a number of the French brands aren’t suitable, either. But for my horse, the tree on the Devoucoux Biarritz is great. I bought my first Devoucoux when I was riding with a trainer sponsored by Devoucoux, but it wasn’t under pressure for her- it was because her personal saddle happened to be a pretty good fit on my horse, and that company was able to make me one that was even better.

While we’re at it, a difference I have seen when saddle-shopping between the English-made and the other European-made saddles has been that the English-made saddles have a flat tree and it’s really hard to find one that suits a curvy back. By and large I think the non-English companies do this better. Somebody up-thread mentioned the Amerigo CC for its banana-shaped tree; Devoucoux also does this well on some of their models. But I couldn’t find that shape in County or Smith-Worthington. Frank Baines gets closer but wasn’t right for my guy. I think Black Country will do it but I don’t find those saddles comfortable for me. I’m sure there are other brands out there that will do it- but I can’t find them in the local tack shop and I couldn’t get their fitters out to the barn.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=tisor;8314067]

PNWJumper from Washington:
Not sure what these multiple posts are you’re referring to. And naturally I’m speaking of my own experience in California and perhaps saying "no one’ is an exaggeration, but this is my experience from everyone i do know and the barns where I have ridden and the trainers I’ve met here and what I’ve generally seen at shows and also the questioning looks when i mention a saddle brand such as county or black country.

And I’m posting this as a question of others’ experience, stating that it’s been mine. I think an appropriate answer would be “that hasn’t been my experience in Washington” and then followed by something helpful such as the contact info of a brand agnostic fitter since you know your way around these other brands so well, as does your obviously far greater social and riding circle.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you’re right. You started two threads at the same time about saddles and only said it in the one here prior to this current thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?474098-Saddle-recommendation-for-the-high-withered-long-backed-tall-beast

And I’ll concede to your point and modify my statement to say “that hasn’t been my experience in Washington, Oregon, California, BC, or Calgary.” Is that better? Or am I only supposed to know people/trends in the state I live in, despite the fact that it’s the state I show the least in?

I don’t know many brand agnostic reps - the english saddles are similar to the french saddles (et al) in the fact that they are typically 1-brand reps working for the companies (be it County or Black Country or other). I do know one of the County reps in CA, but she’s in NorCal (not sure where you are?).

I don’t buy the idea that “one brand fits all,” but I do have a couple of huge-withered beasts who I’ve tried to step away from County with only to end up back in a County saddle as the only one that my horses like (I liked a couple of the other saddles as much, including the ever-popular CWD, but the horses did not agree - and I put as much of the blame on the saddle fitter that put the demo saddles on my horse as anything, since I would imagine that a configuration exists of most saddles that would work for most horses). Having said all of that, I do know a couple of brand-agnostic saddle fitters in the NW, but I pretty much stick with my County people because the two that I use (one a current County rep and one a former-County-rep-turned-semi-brand-agnostic-part-time-saddle-fitter) are two of the best saddle fitters I’ve ever come across. This is so highly variable by region and state that I have nothing to tell you other than what I said before: Several of my CA friends who ride at the High Jr/AO and GP level ride in these “non-existent” saddles that you speak of, and they utilize saddle fitters for the brands that reside in California.

You’re in one of the best possible states to be in for saddle shopping in that most brands have reps there. But if you’re way out in the boonies it’s possible that you’re not close enough to the “hot spots” to have easy access. In that case, you’re either going to need to work with someone online/via phone (like it sounds like you’ve been doing) or let people know where you’re located for specific recommendations. Also, there are a couple of people here on COTH that have been a huge resource for other people searching for saddles who can make extremely good suggestions like jaybird660 and jn4jenny (there are others, but those are the first two that come to mind). It just takes a search of the forums for the many, many saddle recommendation posts from the last few years. Trumball Mountain Tack is another that has gotten some rave reviews (here and from people I know IRL) for taking tracings and finding/making saddles that fit well.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;8314147]
You’re gonna get mvp in here in a minute- starting this kind of thread is, for her, the equivalent of opening a can of tuna in front of a cat.
While we’re at it, a difference I have seen when saddle-shopping between the English-made and the other European-made saddles has been that the English-made saddles have a flat tree and it’s really hard to find one that suits a curvy back. [/QUOTE]

I completely agree with Renn/aissance on both fronts - mvp is another tremendous saddle resource and can talk shop about a LOT of different saddle types, so I’d add her to the COTH list of peeps who know saddles and can recommend “out of the box” brands.

Also, agree with curvy versus flat backs. All of my horses have ridiculously massive withers. But they all also have flat backs. So I’m a huge County fan, but I also own a Devoucoux that fit the one curvy-backed horse I had brilliantly (unlike any of my Counties).

[Renn_aissance]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8314184]
Also, agree with curvy versus flat backs. All of my horses have ridiculously massive withers. But they all also have flat backs. So I’m a huge County fan, but I also own a Devoucoux that fit the one curvy-backed horse I had brilliantly (unlike any of my Counties).[/QUOTE]

I think County (with a good fitter) does a great job on the flat horse, and again with that good fitter, they can accommodate a wither. Beval’s older models also did a good job with this, although I think the Natural, etc. can get a little tight in between the panels for a bigger-bodied horse; and Prestige might be another brand to consider, although the models I’m personally familiar with suit a horse with a little curve. The flat saddles will especially suit a wither if you are sensitive to what you’re putting underneath your saddle, and this goes double with a young horse whose musculature will change. I personally prefer to err on the side of “generic panels, generous space in between the panels, shim pad” on this kind of horse, because there’s nothing more frustrating than buying The Saddle only to have your youngster change shape in 6 months. (“Look at me, Mom, my topline came up 2 inches!”) A wool flocked saddle can accommodate that, but you may find that you like something foam-flocked, which takes saddle surgery to adjust. (From experience, I also think CWD’s panelling tends to accommodate this strategy pretty well.)

So that might be another strategy for you to consider if you anticipate that your horse will continue to develop- get the right basic fit and customize it with a good shim pad, and be sensitive to the way the horse’s topline is changing so you can adjust your shims accordingly. If your horse couples a big wither and flat back with wither hollows, I’m gonna say “shim pad shim pad” another couple of times.

[Star_s_Ascent]

You could always try http://www.mysaddlesolution.com/ I think they are still in business. She takes saddles on consignement and will bring them to you and fit them. It’s been a couple years since I used her. I was in Northern Ca too and found saddle shopping to be a massive pain in the butt. The last time I bought a saddle before moving here to Washington we no longer had a Northern Ca Antares Rep. (Do they even have one now? It’s been 2 years and it seems like they still don’t have one) We happened to be going to San Diego anyway so I was able to meet with the southern rep at Del Mar. He was able to fit me (I’m short but not the easiest fit. So I’ve spent a lot of time shipping saddles back and forth) but not my horse. I had sent him photos before going down of the horse and he was able to do a decent job fitting the horse. I don’t know what part of Northern Ca you are in but where I was the few tack stores semi near me (I had to drive about an hour to get to the closest one) sucked saddle wise. They never had anything in my size and trying something too big wasn’t going to tell me where the flap was going to be on the saddle that was actually my size. Once I knew what flaps worked for me on the Antares it was easiest for me to just look for a used Antares that I knew would work.

[mvp]

So, OP, I have two questions for you.

1. What do you want?

2. What are you willing to do to get it?

I ask because the rest of the post is about broad problems or things you have noticed. I’ll respond to those, first; and tell you what I’d do, second. And know that I grew up riding in Woodside in NorCal. I can imagine the “industry” you are in, as an outlier HO.

By and large, I do think French saddles are made for riders butts and eyes, before anything else. And it has proven a successful business model, at least for people in the H/J industry.

Second, I think dressage saddle designers are, in general, ahead of those in H/J world in terms of looking for a horse-friendly fit. IMO, that’s because they have to, since we spend a lot more time sitting and really communicating a lot with the seat. FWIW, I don’t think dressage saddle makers get everything right for horses or riders in their discipline. But they have figured out how to widen the gullet and still have relatively small riders on relatively wide horses think they can find a place to sit and drape their leg.

I don’t think saddle fitting or padding is rocket science. But it does cost money to get educated. It costs the rep money; it will cost you money. I have been buying saddles for myself (a shortie who wants a straight flap) and horses who were wide before saddle makers commonly made wide trees. So I spent a ton of money and time on shipping saddles back and forth, taking pictures and measurements as distant fitters wanted…. basically, I educated myself.

So if I were you and felt that I was being ripped off a bit by the hype of brand-specific reps marketing saddles their way, I’d strike out on my own. But I’d know I was going to spend an appreciable amount of money on the education. At least you’ll have that at the end of this saddle hunt, and you probably will have spent 1/2 to 2/3 the money on a saddle. You can afford to be wrong, as most of us are once or twice.

Oh, I’d be really surprised if what you say is true— that no one on the West Coast rides in anything other than a Frenchie. I’ll bet that’s not even true for the fancy full-service barns in SF and LA whose trainers have deals with one or the other of these brands.

[norcalammie]

I agree many of the saddle companies are spending huge dollars on marketing their saddles and have reps at the major shows. Some of the other saddle brands do not have as strong a marketing dollar but are often a good choice.

I personally am a County fan - live in Northern California - and have several friends that also own Counties. Some of us show and some do not. My County rep is quite responsive and does a good job explaining saddle fit. My horse loves County saddles and he is very particular about what works for him and what does not.

I think if you look closely there are plenty of Counties in Northern California - just maybe you are not seeing their reps at the shows like you see so many of the other brands.

[ako]

Availability is a big driver. At many h/j barns, you’ll have access to multiple French saddles to try even before you get a rep out. We tend to buy what we know - and hopefully what we know works. That doesn’t mean it’s the best.

[doublesstable]

Nice thing is there are a lot of saddle options out there and we can buy from so far away. I think that’s pretty amazing considering where I was when I was a kid trying to find a saddle.

I have found that a few times I have purchased a saddle my trainer rides in. Probably because they were nice. I bought an Albion Dressage saddle and I LOVE it. It fits a variety of my horses and is wool flocked.

I was at a hunter barn and loved my trainers CWD… and I did search for saddles for a very long time. At that time I had a difficult to fit horse and it worked great for two of my horses. At a more EQ barn now and many ride in the Butets and how they are great saddles - they feel nice to ride in I didn’t get one because it didn’t fit my horse.

I ended up borrowing another riders Meyer saddle and it worked so I ordered one.

I had a conversation with the vet and equine chiropractor about one of my horses issues with saddle fit. He is so wide in the back and would actually limp with a saddle too long or slightly narrow.

The chiro actually recommended a County and the Vet said the wider saddles are CWD and Meyer. Now the Meyer is a French saddle.

I am not sure if the French are marketing masters; all I know is I try different saddles (don’t care about the brand) see what makes my horses happy and fits me where I feel comfortable and balanced. And that sometimes take a lot of searching to make that happen.

Most of the trainers I know have several different saddles they use as well as they will ride in the clients saddle depending on the horse.

I don’t know if my rambling helped but keep up the search and just buy what you and your horse like

[TheBrownHorse]

I may have missed this, but what part of Nor Cal are you in?

JRD makes great saddles. I owned one that I grew out of (physically) but I have a good friend who works for them who came out, fitted it and flocked it to my horse. The total plus was that it fit him like a glove, and at the time, really fit me too. They’re well crafted, very comfy saddles. I wish I could have kept it.

When I had a shark withered TB, I went with the Vega/Amerigo

[jaybird660]

We sell a load of saddles, particularly Black Country, on the west coast. I think those customers come to us because they are less available locally and they come to us. I’m happy to answer questions or chat with you if you want to email or call.

[meupatdoes]

Couldn’t agree with OP more.

Why people prefer to spend over $4k on a saddle whose design is not customizable with the twist inherently too narrow for anything, sold by some minimally trained person who took a weekend course on how to rep one brand, and who just sends it out in a box with no interest whatsoever in how it actually sits on the horse once it is made, is completely beyond me.

I’ll have actual certified people who trained in saddle fitting for more than a weekend PERSONALLY DELIVER my actually custom fit saddles for less money, thanks.