[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7043718]
Well, your conclusion is opposite to the one my own vet and I have come to. :winkgrin: So, to each, his or her own. I guess the debate will continue. :yes::winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
No doubt – and the mares will be laughing at us behind their hoofs the whole time.:winkgrin:
Well, mare is very fertile (and not a maiden), stallion apparently has great numbers and gets everything in sight pregnant on the first try, let’s just hope it all works out. Follicle and mare were ripe, so if we are lucky she can tolerate the double dose, which as unnecessary by any measure. All I can think of is that the vet must have been inspired by the Monty Python song in the Meaning of Life.
You have to be your mare’s advocate. Many vets are so busy, they’re looking to save themselves time, and aren’t necessarily concerned with what’s actually best for your mare. My vet would love to use both doses at the same time, everytime. Just say no!!
[QUOTE=vali;7044093]
All I can think of is that the vet must have been inspired by the Monty Python song in the Meaning of Life.[/QUOTE]
Which one do you mean ? (I love MP e.g. the life of Brian…)
Every Little Sperm Is Sacred
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7043624]
I guess I have to wonder why anyone thinks the second dose will last longer than the swimmers that have already been used, if all were collected on the same day?
As far asusing two doses at once, I do not want to use more volume than necessary. That is why I would not use two doses at once (assuming the concentration is correct and a full dose has been sent).[/QUOTE]
This is my vet’s way of thinking too. :yes:
O.K…so in a perfect world, the stallion owner sends us great semen with super longevity, the semen isn’t heat stressed and is professionally prepared. I found many vets have become a bit skeptical of what is in the box, and even if it looks good under the microscope, they would rather throw it all in if they are confident the mare is just about to ovulate…“the every sperm is sacred” philosophy:)
Yes larger volume is irritating to the uterus, but the mare has time to clear it out. With putting the second dose in a day later, you get another inflammatory reaction a day later…which is also not ideal.
I’ve thrown out a lot of second doses over the years.
These days my vet will put in both doses in a young mare if ovulation is close, or I will do the 2nd dose myself, 24-36 hours later, if the mare is still in a pretty good heat.
Having good results that way, and will continue, but am more cautious with aged mares that have had many foals and follow them up closely with post breeding ultrasounds, oxytocin and flushing as needed. With a real old girl with clearance issues would probably use just one dose. Fortunately don’t have any of those right now.
We throw out the second dose, just view it as a backup for leakage. If she doesn’t ovulate in a timely manner, would prefer to have another fresh shipment rather than using old cooled semen. But vets definitely do not agree on this!
[QUOTE=Crossroads Farm;7044438]
You have to be your mare’s advocate. Many vets are so busy, they’re looking to save themselves time, and aren’t necessarily concerned with what’s actually best for your mare. My vet would love to use both doses at the same time, everytime. Just say no!![/QUOTE]
Sometimes this does help if you know your stuff.
The fact is a “double dose” is usually NO MORE than 100ccs, which is the average size of an ejaculate in LC. Of course, there are things in processed semen that isn’t in an ejaculate, so perhaps that comes into play.
But I am second guessing my vet(s) ALL the time! This last attempt at ET the vet did not want to put the (frozen) semen in because the mare had ovulated some time in the last 12 hrs. and they thought it was too late and we should just short cycle her.
Since this was a LFG foal, I wasn’t as worried about “wasting” semen and I insisted he inseminate her. After all, there was a 100% guarantee she would not conceive if we did NOT put the semen in, right? that was for sure. But we still had a shot of conception, since the stallion’s frozen was known to be top quality.
So I basically bullied him into doing DHI and the mare caught!! Unfortunately he had trouble with the actual ET and the recip mare did not hold…sigh…but again, he advised we skip the whole cycle!!
Vets are people too…and they usually don’t have the time to be up on all the latest stuff…if you do, it can help.
[QUOTE=vali;7044093]
Well, mare is very fertile (and not a maiden), stallion apparently has great numbers and gets everything in sight pregnant on the first try, let’s just hope it all works out. Follicle and mare were ripe, so if we are lucky she can tolerate the double dose, which as unnecessary by any measure. All I can think of is that the vet must have been inspired by the Monty Python song in the Meaning of Life.[/QUOTE]
If she’s young and fertile, you will probably be just fine. But next time, if your vet won’t listen, just ask for some doses of oxy and give her the shots yourself. Follow the protocol listed on Equine Repro’s site.
That will clear her just fine.
update
So, I’m cautiously optimistic because it’s still early, but we saw a little black dot on the ultrasound today. Now when there’s a heartbeat I’ll get really excited.
[QUOTE=vali;7068195]
So, I’m cautiously optimistic because it’s still early, but we saw a little black dot on the ultrasound today. Now when there’s a heartbeat I’ll get really excited.[/QUOTE]
Hooray!!! Good luck for the next 11 mos!
I, like most stallion owners, send two doses. But I cringe when I hear the vet put both in at the same time. I agree, keep the volume put in the mare to a minimum if possible…
I breed as close to ovulation as possible with one dose and have had outstanding results (as long as semen is good quality and mares are ovulating normally).
I agree that less is better. I’ve had clients tell me that their vet bred the mare before she ovulated, and when vet came to recheck the mare, she routinely threw the second dose in, even though the mare had probably ovulated ten to twelve hours earlier during the night. (This is using cooled shipped semen.)
I don’t know why she would want to throw in the second dose at that point and cause more irritation to the uterus. (Semen was excellent quality, so that wasn’t the reason. It was just the protocol she used.)
My stallion rarely had more than 50 mls total for each ejaculate. If he did, I knew something I was doing was not to his liking.
I always included with shipments:
Stallion’s average progressive motility - example:
80% at 24 hours
65% at 48 hours
30 - 40 % at 72 hours
Standard Breeding dose = 500,000,000. Progressive
Arrival > 60% = breeding dose needed:________ mls
Arrival > 40% = breeding dose needed:________ mls
Arrival > 20% = breeding dose needed:________ mls
I would list the mls needed for each case, so they just needed to see the motility to know how much would be a good dose.
If they didn’t want to bother checking, at least seeing the normals, would give them more confidence in how much they needed.
The 2nd dose is a courtesy dose - in case of leakage, delayed arrival, unforeseen weather issues, etc.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;7070343]
My stallion rarely had more than 50 mls total for each ejaculate. If he did, I knew something I was doing was not to his liking.[/QUOTE]
You are right. I was corrected on this and rightly so. The “typical” vol. produced by a stallion is in the neighborhood of 50 ccs.
Sometimes my old brain shifts the files around up there without telling my mouth (or in this case, my typing fingers…).
:eek:
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7043663]
This is a question that has been debated for as long as I’ve been breeding: where is the best place for that semen: in the cooler or in the mare?
I choose “in the cooler” because, according to the research I am aware of, the mare is actually a “hostile” place for the semen. IMHO the die off rate would be lower if the sperm is kept in a non-stress environment, cooled down to lessen metabolism and given nourishment (the extender).
I admittedly am not aware of any studies that actually PROVE this, but it’s the conclusion I’ve come to.
It could be that when you check the semen stored in the cooler 24 hrs later, you have only (let’s say) 50% FM when you had 70% on collection. But (for all we know) there is only 30% surviving mobile sperm from Dose #1 24 hrs. after that dose was placed in the mare.
So if you DO need a 2nd dose (because mares are mares), it’s just my thinking that the dose stored in the cooler is in better shape.
But I may well be wrong…
Of course, I have also factored in the fact that the semen is irritating to the uterus as well, so the volume is best kept under control.
But again, this is something that breeders & vets argue about constantly…[/QUOTE]
20 years ago the general consensus was that semen was best stored and second dose used the following day if mare hadn’t ovulated. However more recent studies seems to indicate that the best place for semen is in the mare. The semen switches off and conserves energy until the mare ovulates.
We only use 15mls and if the mare hasn’t ovulated within 48 hours we will reinseminate with a fresh collection. If the semen is still alive in the fridge then it’s still alive in the mare so there seems little benefit in using semen from the same collection that has already been used.
All the Dutch and German stallion stations only ever send out 15mls so we can assume that they know what works best considering the vast numbers of mares bred each year and the consensus is definitely less is more.
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