Friesian lung size?

[Karoline]

Thank you

For all the responses. I know how wonderful Friesians are and this question is in no way a ding at the breed. I am massaging a 7 year old 17h plus very large Friesian and he had an episode this past week under saddle which brought back to mind the smaller lung mention I saw here. We asked the vet who said he did not know - so we are curious to know if this fact is correct or not. I also would like to know because I am curious how smaller lungs affect muscles function and how this may/or not impact training.

[Elegante_E]

I don’t think it’s a lung thing. I have read that their hearts are not as large say as TBs so that they don’t get that second wind as quickly, and that they are sensitive to heat.

So far, the only thing I know about the one I have is that he’s lazy and wasn’t pushed soon enough by his own. Reaping what I sow, it’s now tough love time. I’m still the one doing the heavy sweating but we’re getting there. Have to say, when he is in the mood to work, he’s amazing - moves off the leg easily, is supple and floating. Might just be a boy thing, the other laziest horse I had was an Andalusian gelding. That boy took a lot of work in the beginning as well but he turned into a fabulous partner so I have great hope.

[Obi]

To the OP, my ‘mutt’ has suffered from heat stroke before after being work but I have not seen any challenges with his breathing. I attributed the incident due to a freak rapid rise of temperature (20 degrees at 11 am) and midday sun on a black horse. He is crossed with a TB so perhaps I got a set of TB lungs with his Friesian movement and temperment…oh well;). I would be interseted if the breathing issue applies to all draft type horses rather than just one breed of them.

Please keep us updated!

[Sabine]

I have a coming 4yr old Friesian Cross. We work in the morning at 7:30am or in the covered arena- I avoid long periods of direct sun and working in mid day heat.
You can do the conditioning periods during part of the day where the heat/sun/ and black factor doesn’t aggravate things as much and get the horse conditioned. He responds well to that. I feed lots of electrolytes and take ample time to cool out. Seems a bit more work than the WBs that I know but well worth it- because of the amazing gaits- float- and super level headed brain the horse has. It’s taken me a while to figure this out- but I plan on doing a lot of trail hill work in the early AMs to condition- as he gets a bit older…

In summary- a joy to own and train and work with- just requiring a bit of a different angle and awareness…

[slc2]

“lung capacity” has very little to do with the size of the lungs; depth of girth has nothing to do with lung size. it is a tradition to equate girth depth and lung size, they have nothing to do with each other.

the difference in how different animals respond to conditioning, i think has to do with many, many factors of metabolism, heat response, muscle mass, a ton of different things.

[Lifting_Chickk]

[QUOTE=Woodland;3229667]

My Daughter RIDES HARD every single day - i doubt one would hold up
But they sure are pretty to look at.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the individual. I own a Friesian mare and have had her in intense dressage training where she is ridden 5 days a week. She holds up just fine.

She competes barefoot and has been 100% sound every day of 7 years (knocking on wood, of course)

I also do low level eventing with her.

They can be conditioned. It takes longer than with a “normal” horse, but they are worth every extra bit of effort.

[oldschool]

Is it true that they have a narrower windpipe?? That is what I’ve been told.

[Tiki]

Friesians have a much smaller body surface area for their size compared to smaller/smaller bodied horses and thus have a harder time keeping themselves cool. This is probably one of the reasons they pant. You see this in dogs. Dogs don’t sweat except through their pads. They pant to cool themselves by evaporation of saliva. These animals need to be kept well hydrated to NOT suffer heatstroke.

[Dune]

@Tiki;3232801

Friesians have a much smaller body surface area for their size compared to smaller/smaller bodied horses and thus have a harder time keeping themselves cool. This is probably one of the reasons they pant. You see this in dogs. Dogs don’t sweat except through their pads. They pant to cool themselves by evaporation of saliva. These animals need to be kept well hydrated to NOT suffer heatstroke.

Smaller body surface?? Huh??? I don’t think I’m buying that one, sorry Tiki. A horse panting is also quite different than a dog panting. Dogs pant because that is their mechanism for dealing with heat, and it’s perfectly normal for them. (although I swear I love the smell of “puppy sweat”. :yes: ) Anhydrosis, a condition where they lose/don’t have the ability to sweat, can often cause the horse to pant when overheated. This is not normal for horses and I’ve found it to be quite common in the Friesians, unfortunately, but it also exists in other breeds as well and can also be brought on by certain medications.

[FriesianX]

PintoPiaffe, thank you for pointing out the differences in cross breeding programs. Cadence is my stallion - and I’ve also bred to Nico (he’s LOVELY). You are so right, there are differences in what people are breeding for. The Friesian/Warmblood crosses are much different in type then the Friesian/Saddlebred or Friesian/Quarterhorse or Friesian/XYZ - all are very different, and I’d expect the offspring to look different as a result! There are also differences in the quality and type of Friesian bloodlines being used. To get a more consistent look, you need to see consistency in both mare type and stallion type.

If you are curious about offspring, take a look at my website (www.MysticOakRanch.com) - most are Friesian/WB crosses, and all look like Warmbloods with better bone and a bit more knee and hock action - but nothing like the Friesian knee & hock action. My stallion is baroque in appearance - mostly the big neck and shorter back, and he has a ton of bone, but he moves more like a Warmblood. And his temperment is more like a Friesian - kind and forgiving and wanting to please. He’s actually quite easy to train - not sensitive, but definately not dull either!

We showed Cadence last weekend in 100+ degree heat, afternoon rides, outdoor warm up (in full sun) at 3rd level. He wasn’t any worse off than the Warmbloods and Spanish Horses that were showing in the same awful weather. All were sweating and breathing hard - but so were the riders.

There were a handful of Friesians showing at the show (at least one at 2nd level too), and they all seemed to hold their own. I think initial conditioning takes a bit longer with the breed, but once they are conditioned, they are fine. My horses all sweat just fine. There are a few trainers in this area that work with quite a few Friesians, and none of them are dealing w/ andohidrosis issues (and it gets HOT here, summer it isn’t uncommon to have weeks at a time over 100, bleah).

Having said all that, I wouldn’t use Friesians for endurance rides;) But I know someone who is competing a Friesian/Arab cross in Combined Driving (and that is a grueling sport) and doing quite well.

[Tiki]

A body’s surface area is a measurement of the skin that covers the body. You may have noticed that adults and children (and babies in particular) have very different reactions to heat and cold. This happens because the body cools down by sweating at a rate proportional to the area of its skin, but warms up in proportion to its mass (volume). The ratio of surface area to mass is much larger for babies, so they cool down faster than adults. The same works for animals as well. The larger the mass, the smaller the body surface area, proportionally. Thus, large bodies horses, vs lean bodied horses will have more trouble cooling down. The smaller, leaner horses will have more trouble in the winter keeping warm and will need sheets or blankets more than their larger-bodied cousins, i.e. drafts and Friesians. It’s simple physics.

[FriesianX]

Tiki, does that explain one of the great mysteries in life - why do foals always lay in the sun, even when it is 100 degrees? Do they cool down so much quicker?

[Evalee_Hunter]

[QUOTE=Dune;3232869]
Smaller body surface?? Huh??? I don’t think I’m buying that one, sorry Tiki. . . . . [/QUOTE]

Tiki is correct. Larger animals always have a SMALLER surface to volume ratio than do smaller animals.

I realize horses are not blocks of wood. However, to see how this works, lets imagine we have a chunk of 2x4 which is 6 inches long and a chunk of 4x4 which is 12 inches long.

The volume of the 2x4x6 inches long is 48 cubic inches. The surface area of of each of the 6 sides is 2x4=8, 2x4=8, 4x6=24, 4x6=24, 2x6=12, 2x6=12. 8+8+24+24+12+12 = 88 square inches. Surface:volume ratio = 88:48 or 1.83:1

Volume of the 4x4x12=192 cubic inches. Surface area is 4x4=16, 4x4=16, 12x4=48, 12x4=48, 12x4=48, 12x4=48. 16+16+48+48+48+48=224. The surface:volume ratio = 192:224 or 0.86:1

The volume of the 4x4x12 is nearly 4 times as big as the volume of the 2x4x6. However, compare what happens to the surface area. The surface area of the 4x4x12 is only a little over twice as big as the surface area of the 4x4x12. Thus, relatively speaking the larger piece of wood has a smaller surface (smaller surface to volume ratio).

This same thing applies to all animals. Have you ever wondered why moose, elk, & polar bears (all of which are very large) live in the arctic while deer & brown bears (somewhat smaller animals) live further south? It doesn’t seem to make sense since food is harder to find in the arctic. What advantage do these larger animals have? The advantage is the surface to volume ratio which makes it easier for a larger animal to keep itself warm.

The same things applies to horses - larger horses have a relatively smaller surface when compared to volume which makes body cooling more difficult & heat conservation easier.

Of course, animals have complex shapes & there are other factors such as length of the neck & legs (extremities). Long extremities assist cooling. A more compact shape makes cooling more difficult.

Surface to volume ratio is EXTREMELY important to understanding pretty much every aspect of biology - it limits the size of cells (ever wonder why cells are always microscopic?); it limits the size of insects; means that stockier, larger animals evolved in the far north & that leaner, longer limbed animals evolved in hot & desert climates.

Look at a horse lying down on a cool day. He will probably be sternal with his legs folded close to his body. He is reducing his surface area to keep himself warm. Look at the same horse napping on a hot day. He will probably be flat out on his side with his legs & neck stretched out. He is increasing his surface area to assist in cooling his body.

The lungs themselves are structured in a way that makes for a huge surface area within a small volume. The structure of the lungs consists of a large tube (the trachea) dividing into smaller & smaller tubes, with the smallest tubes ending in little (microscopic) “bubbles” called “alveoli”. So the lungs “get around” the surface volume ratio limits by having lots & lots of surfaces WITHIN the volume.

[Karoline]

It sounds like most of/all of the Friesian owners have not heard of the breed having anatomically smaller lungs. Thank you for all the information on your horses and how you work with them.

[Tiki]

The larger the body surface area, the more area to have sweat glands and to cool that body. The smaller, the more difficult to cool, but easier to keep warm. Same thing with people. Large, heavy people have a smaller surface area proportionate to their size, or volume, are often hot when other, lean people are cold, and often walk around in the winter with only a light windbreaker while very lean people have sweaters, scarfs and down jackets and hats on. Just look at the bulk (volume) of a large person and the amount of skin proportionate to that bulk, vs a very lean person (e.g. a marathon runner) who has a very small body with lots of skin proportionate to their size. Marathoners can’t keep warm, heavy people can’t keep cool. I doubt this has anything to do with lung capacity or size.

[Kathy_Johnson]

Although I have not heard of the smaller windpipe, I have seen the shape of the neck affect air flow, particularly if the horse is overly collected or pulled behind the vertical. I have seen a number of noisy breathers, and they became noisier the tighter the neck.

The black coat, all the hair and the mass of the horse make conditioning more difficult. Many were bred to trot, which does not impact the wind. If they do not have a good canter, and if they labor in the canter, that does make breathing harder.

Anahydrosis, the inability to sweat, is common in many warmbloods of all breeds who are imported from northern countries and sent to hot climates. That also can cause panting.

[egontoast]

The lungs may be smaller (don’t know) but of course Friesians have FOUR of them, unlike any other horse, although the gypsy vanner has three.

[Dune]

I’m still not buying it. I’m not comparing a full size Friesian to a foal, I’m comparing them to another breed of horse (WB/TB/whatever) similar in size/weight. The Friesian typically will have the issues we’re discussing while the other breed of horse will not. It’s a breed thing, not a size thing.

[FriesianX]

[QUOTE=egontoast;3234693]
The lungs may be smaller (don’t know) but of course Friesians have FOUR of them, unlike any other horse, although the gypsy vanner has three.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about 4 lungs, but my 2 year old Friesian thinks he has GILLS too. Show him any body of water, and he’s in. I have submarine pictures of him - just the top of his head above water, calmly navigating the pond. Every time he’d get back to the shallower section, he’d jump back in for more submarine work.

I don’t think the Friesians are physically much different than any other heavier sporthorse (old style WB, RID, etc). All horses have their own unique training and conditioning challenges, so it is a matter of assessing the individual horse and what they need to make them “better”.

I see a lot of people doing well with Friesians, and most who have them (or train them) will tell you that the breed is known for a great temperment. I think their greatest downfall is all that HAIR - clippers can do wonders for that though

[rcloisonne]

[QUOTE=Evalee Hunter;3233550]
This same thing applies to all animals. Have you ever wondered why moose, elk, & polar bears (all of which are very large) live in the arctic while deer & brown bears (somewhat smaller animals) live further south?[/QUOTE]
One is left to wonder why, then, the largest land mammal on the planet (the African Elephant) lives at or near the Equator?