Frozen semen LFG?

[Archie]

I have a question & wonder if some members can shed some light on the subject.

How do frozen semen agents sell frozen semen with a live foal guarantee…?

From what I know frozen semen is usually sold in two ways:

1. per insemination dose or,
2. three inseminations or pregnancy, whichever comes first

Are there other deals (other than granting a cover from a local imported stallion via fresh/chilled semen to seal the deal…) that I’m missing?

Thanks for your thoughts

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Archie;8327588]
I have a question & wonder if some members can shed some light on the subject.

How do frozen semen agents sell frozen semen with a live foal guarantee…?

From what I know frozen semen is usually sold in two ways:

1. per insemination dose or,
2. three inseminations or pregnancy, whichever comes first

Are there other deals (other than granting a cover from a local imported stallion via fresh/chilled semen to seal the deal…) that I’m missing?

Thanks for your thoughts[/QUOTE]

The answer to your question is: “It varies from dealer to dealer” and it will be spelled out in the contract you sign with them. It can mean that the semen dealer keeps shipping semen until the mare gets in foal. This may be extended to the following year. Usually there is a time limit on the LFG.

You should note that even though they give you more semen, you are still responsible for shipping, vet fees etc. so the best plan is to find a repro vet who knows what they are doing. We have had about half a dozen frozen semen foals, and the skill of repro vets can vary immensely. In the past when we used Dr. Hurtgen we always got in foal on one dose, first time. I don’t think we ever paid more than a few thousand, and that included board. The best value we ever got was in 2004 when we did an embryo transfer, with a 23 year old donor mare, who Hurtgen got in foal on one dose of frozen, harvested the embryo, successfully transplanted it, and then got the donor mare back in foal again, on one dose of frozen, from another stallion. The bill for the vet fees to do all of that was $600 (six hundred dollars).

Dr. Hurtgen passed away several years ago.

In 2013 we ended up spending months and close to $15K to get our Lord Sinclair mare in foal with frozen. We used Judy Yancey’s vet, and started with For Romance. After a few expensive cycles we switched to the KWPN stallion Glock’s Johnson, and finally got our mare in foal. As any breeder will tell you, there is no way a breeder could survive at those prices. BTW, the folks with the Johnson semen were excellent to work with and they offered a LFG. For Romance did not, and I am not sure what his success rate was with that frozen semen.

Which is another “fun fact” you should take note of: not all mare stallion combinations work. You may think its a great pairing, but sometimes a given mare and stallion simply are not compatible, and when you switch to another stallion you will have immediate success. So, you have this “Grande Plan” to do a breeding with WORLD CHAMPION Greatest Thing Since Sliced Bread - Mr XXX, but your mare’s reproductive system just says, “No” to him, and there is little you can do about it. You switch to any other stallion and she is in foal on the first cycle. And you won’t really know this until you try.

[Archie]

“The answer to your question is: “It varies from dealer to dealer” and it will be spelled out in the contract you sign with them. It can mean that the semen dealer keeps shipping semen until the mare gets in foal. This may be extended to the following year. Usually there is a time limit on the LFG.”

Thanks for your detailed reply Cartier. I’m interested in your first paragraph. What are the other possible deals other than the two I initially mentioned?

We do a lot of frozen semen inseminations each season, and know how the bill can add up especially if the mare isn’t pregnant first time round. Success rates with frozen semen can vary greatly from batch to batch - even with stallions that usually freeze well. Unfortunately you only know this once the semen has been used in a few different mares. What we have found is that good PTM does not necessary equal good fertility and as you have mentioned sometimes (lesser so) there are compatibility issues.

There are so many variables when breeding, even more so with frozen, thus how should the sale of frozen semen be structured to make it economically viable and a win-win for all?

[Cartier]

With respect to frozen semen contracts, I think the half dozen semen dealers in this country would be your best source of information on what all is out there. I have seen contracts with a price per dose, no LFG, no substitution[s] of mares, and one even controlled which registry the foal could be presented to.

I’m not sure I understand your underlying premise. My sense is that standing a stallion, at least standing a stallion here in the USA, is pretty much a money loosing proposition. It could almost qualify as a public service. If the stallion owner were to factor in the all of the costs of acquiring, housing, training, competiting and advertising a stallion, I doubt most stallion owners break even. That being true, I simply can not see how it is the stallion owner’s concern that the breeder make a profit, given that the stallion owner doesn’t.

I see breeding as a luxury, much as owning a horse is a luxury. It is not a right, and if one can not afford it, no one has a duty to make it cheaper merely to accommodate a desire. Sort of like, I may feel I deserve to be driving around in a Bentley, but if I can’t afford it, it is not the car dealer’s responsibility to make it possible.

In a way - the fact that some very desirable stallions are difficult to get a foal from - which drives prices up for those who take the risks and are successful - is part of the “thrill” of breeding. And I think that many people who breed do it - in part - because when it goes as planned - and you get something spectacular - there is no thrill on earth that compares. But having watched this market for the past two decades, I’d say that very few breeders break even over time, and fewer still stay in it much past ten years, if that. Very few of the breeders who were active even a decade ago still breed.