Frustration - young horse woes!

[todaysalter]

This is mostly a vent, so feel free to scroll by or stay and provide some advice, jingles or moral support.

I got a young horse last year - a 2013 WB gelding. We (trainer well versed in bringing along young horses and I) slowly and carefully brought him along and got him under saddle last fall, then he had much of the winter off. We thought he would start “real” work - but still very much baby - level work this year, and for a while that seemed to be going well. He was starting to progress, he did a series of low-key off-property training trips that he handled well, had a great ammy friendly attitude, but not much work ethic. We tried a few feed changes, and some training changes to instill forward (lots of great advice here, along with what trainer and I were doing) and things slowly got worse not better. He gradually went from good days and bad days you would expect from a green bean to almost all bad days. Forward trots were difficult to get/maintain and canters and canter transitions often caused bucking. We addressed these as training issues, but finally had the vet out to do a lameness eval and workup, because it just wasn’t “teenaged” behavior we were seeing.

Vet (very good dressage rider to GP and lameness vet) says it is somewhat typical of young WB horses - he has some effusion in his hocks and stifles, little sticky in one stifle. He isn’t lame, per se, but does move a bit awkwardly on one back leg, especially in a circle, and flexed slightly off on the stifles. Vet also strongly suspects he has some C6-C7 neck issues based on palpation and neck musculature. The big issue (in vet’s mind) is that he naturally carries himself in a much higher level frame, particularly wrt his head and neck, than he is physically strong enough to support both muscularly and in his soft tissues. The joint issues in neck along with his way of going are showing up also in hind end issues. Vet provided a long list of potential options, and put IM Adequan, and Equioxx on the top of the list, along with a vastly reduced work load, of trails and going back to a TL level frame, and a lot of patience on my part. In vet’s experience it may be 6months or 3 years before his joints are fully mature, and there isn’t a great way to predict it.

OK, I can do that - he is my forever horse, and I want him happy and sound for the long run. But part of me wants to cry. I waited, I saved, I finally got my dream horse. I tried to do everything right, and he is miserable right now. The hardest is that trainer is a bit suspicious of the neck diagnosis and I am not sure how well trainer will follow the exercise plan - particularly the longer frame. I know. my money - find a new trainer if she wont do what the vet and I want, but I do value her opinion as well. Another option (and not a terrible one, especially given the time of year) is to turn him out again for another 6 months and see how he does then.

Anyone with a crystal ball? I’m currently trying to decide how to proceed.

[alibi_18]

@todaysalter

(…) along with a vastly reduced work load, of trails and going back to a TL level frame, and a lot of patience on my part. In vet’s experience it may be 6months or 3 years before his joints are fully mature, and there isn’t a great way to predict it.

The hardest is that trainer is a bit suspicious of the neck diagnosis and I am not sure how well trainer will follow the exercise plan - particularly the longer frame.

Why were you no longer in a Training level frame with this youngster?

What does your trainer have agains’t longer frame?

Clearly, your trainer isn’t good for your horse. I’d find another one.

There is a real problem if you can’t trust your trainer to follow your vet’s diagnostic…

[Wicky]

Do what the vet says. Your horse is showing you, by developing effusions, that he is hurting and his biomechanics are bad (for now). Don’t cause him permanent damage by pushing his training.

I am in somewhat of a similar situation, but my horse is 8. I’ve had him at Tufts, had bone scans, injected areas, and although he is much improved, there appears to still be discomfort in his neck. I’m going to have him treated for possible Lyme, and do walk work. Frustrating - yes! I traveled with my (lameness) vet and a trainer to buy this horse, picked him out from a herd of horses just under saddle at 4. Although his mind has matured, his training stalled and is going backwards. I may turn him out for a bit, if the Lyme treatment and walk work doesn’t help.

So - IMHO - effusions prove significant problems, probably lack of maturity of muscle and joint and do NOT let your trainer ignore this.

[todaysalter]

@alibi_18

Why were you no longer in a Training level frame with this youngster?

What does your trainer have agains’t longer frame?

Clearly, your trainer isn’t good for your horse. I’d find another one.

There is a real problem if you can’t trust your trainer to follow your vet’s diagnostic…

The youngster seems to like the higher level frame - he volunteers this frame over the longer frame.

I do worry now that trainer might not be the best choice for this horse at this time, although she has been very good for me, and has done great with other horses.

Trainer brings in some biases due to her experiences with her own horse, and likewise thinks vet may also be seeing neck issues everywhere because vet had a horse with neck issues. I don’t think this is malicious or even conscious on her part. I plan to discuss these possibilities with trainer and vet.

[luvmyhackney]

The horse is only 4, he has another 20+ years of work ahead of him. Give him a light workload and let him grow up. If the trainer isn’t on board, move and a find one that is. You have plenty of work years to go.

Don’t second guess yourself. You are your horse’s advocate. You have to pay for this horse for the next 20+ years, not your trainer.

[RedHorses]

Don’t despair! I have a now 9 year old WB that I got when he was two WEEKS old. He’s got so much going for him, but it’s really been less than two years since he really came into his own and was ready for real work. There were physical issues, mental issues, tack issues, long periods of no riding, and two years ago I had just about had enough.

Two years ago in February we got the last major puzzle piece in place and I am so glad I stuck with him. I enjoy riding him a lot, and I like who he is too.

Your guy is four. Back off, give him time off if that’s the best course. You have time to do this right so that you’ll have time for more later. Maybe you give him six months off, then go back to the vet for a check up.

Trust yourself, and don’t let your trainer persuade you to go faster than YOU have decided. Right or wrong, you have to pay the bills and live with the results. Taking an extra fees months or even a couple of years isn’t going to make things harder later on, and could save you a lot of heartache.

(((Hugs)))

[alibi_18]

ETA: Todaysalter, I’m sorry for being this blunt and harsh. You are in a learning process with this horse, it is not totally your fault and I was not trying to shame/blame you directly.
We all want to believe our trainers. You just followed what was taught to you but believe me, this isn’t right. Maybe for another horse, maybe for another rider, maybe in other conditions. Look up the training scales, look up Janet Foy’s books, look up the tests for the 4yrs old (who are meant for really high talented youngsters brought up by pros… and listen to your guts.

Training horses is an art. There are steps and building blocks. You just can’t go over a few steps and skip some blocks… the building won’t last.
Real pro trainers know how to take their time to quickly get good results. You cannot rush training as it will either fries the horse’s body or mind.

@todaysalter

The youngster seems to like the higher level frame - he volunteers this frame over the longer frame.

That’s the worst excuse ever and you don’t want to hear that from any trainer.

If your trainer was a real trainer, he wouldn’t talk like that.

If my horse likes to jump, maybe I should just jump all the time for hours… Who cares if the horse’s not ready!

And you guys wondered why the horse was now bucking and showing frustration… Not only did you get to let him do whatever it wanted, but you abused of its gentleness at giving you more than what it was physically able to really do.

There’s a reason why there are levels in dressage and reasons for the pyramid scale…

I do worry now that trainer might not be the best choice for this horse at this time, although she has been very good for me, and has done great with other horses.
Trainer brings in some biases due to her experiences with her own horse, and likewise thinks vet may also be seeing neck issues everywhere because vet had a horse with neck issues. I don’t think this is malicious or even conscious on her part. I plan to discuss these possibilities with trainer and vet.

Is your horse thriving in this program?
Are you guys having fun?

Your horse is lame (walking funny is lame) and sore.

Your decision.

[merrygoround]

He is 4! He is is 4!! He should be happily doing Training level training, and hacking out at least 3 days a week.

It is not uncommon for trainers to think they know better than vets. It sounds to me as though your vet has far better credentials than your trainer.

[Dutchmare433]

I’d give him some time off and start back slowly in the spring. I think most 4 year olds should be working on the basics. Forward, obedient, on the bit, etc. And hacking out as much as possible.

Caveat…some horses develop a bit faster and have an easy time learning some more at this age. My horse is 4, and has very easy canter work…he’s capable of canter lengthenings and counter canter, as well as lateral work in the trot. But we just play with it here and there, and mostly leave it alone. And he’s still getting 4-6 weeks off over the winter because it will be better for him in the long run.

I’m guessing that this horse is looking like a 2nd level horse in the neck and a training level horse in the hind end…it really doesn’t matter that he prefers to keep his neck like that, you’re trainer needs to teach him to stretch out before teaching him to compress.

[Roni4444]

One good advice I received that applies to any level of riding is that horses (and riders) should be given plateau time - meaning that when progress is made, to then level out for a week or more. To let the body and mind “rest” a bit and to make the new accomplishment become a habit and easy. It can be very tempting to keep pushing on and on but this could lead to overload at some point.

[sammy14]

Apart from the fact that the horse is only four, maybe check into just why he’s always been reluctant to go forward. I had one like this, graded the equivalent of your 2nd level at the age of 5 (we have a points based grading system here) I used to get comments such as ‘‘too collected for this level’’
He was a very up in front, seemingly lazy youngster, who was compliant and sweet. He had pedal osteitis in both front feet it turned out.
With issues like yours, I always check the front feet first now. All the rest may be secondary issues. They may very likely be neck issues too.Maybe you can help him if you act now and don’t let the trainer force him into an early retirement!

[J-Lu]

To the OP,

Your horse is 4. My WB, as a 4 year old, also preferred to go with his neck high. The problem is that he wasn’t using his back properly, and I suspect yours isn’t either. I had to train him to work over the back and in a TL frame, which took time. The training plan you were following did not work. My horse was x-rayed to ensure growth plates were closed prior to starting. Was yours? Is he large?

I’m sorry your dreams didn’t go as planned with this 4 year old, but welcome to the club of owning a 2-4 year old. My advice is that if you want a sound 14 year old, listen to your vet and insist your trainer does, too. If you would be happy with a 14 year old with potential lameness issues, then listen to your trainer. Unless you are going to the Olympics or wish to resell this horse, no horse suffered ever from working in a TL frame as a 4 or even 5 year old as per vet. And no upper level horse simply “worked out of” moving poorly as a lower level horse. If this is the dream horse you invested in, get a different quality vet opinion if you wish AND get a different, quality trainer opinion if you wish. Get radiographs of the neck to verify your vet’s opinion after palpation. Buy a 30-min phone session (tape yourself with your horse going as you think he should) with a quality trainer. You have lots of options.

Good luck!

[RTF]

When I bring along my youngsters, I try to ride/train for where they are at physically and mentally. I do lots of walking, very light 15-25 min training sessions. I give them time off if they go hip high, or if they just seem unbalanced. I always try to do less physically, and I train them like you would train yourself for long distance running. It sucks to be honest. It’s easy to push them. If they have ability/talent, it makes it easy to do the harder work, because they can and they will. Just because you can ride a horse in an upper level frame, doesn’t mean you should. Just because you can muscle a horse into the lateral work, doesn’t mean they are ready for it. Talk to your trainer, do less, let the trainer know that you are willing to have less results in a slower time frame. Turn the horse out for 3 months, maybe more. I love bringing along my personal horses, I can go slow, on their time frame, and there’s no pressure to train for an owner. Sounds like the vet is trying to ward off future issues, good for them. Good luck and you seem to really care, I am sure your horse appreciates it!

[EventingMaff]

My close friend is a pro that also breeds all her own mounts. Every horse is different - some come in and are ready to work at 3 and she has to make the conscious effort to put the brakes on, do only the basics and then throw them back in a field to continue to grow up. Others make it clear that they need more time in the field. She brought in one of her 4 year olds this year that last year was the easiest 3 year old she’s had. She expected easy breezy few months picking up from where they left off. Nope. 4 year old made it clear that her body is in a phase that it needs more time. So she did the basics again, focused on forward, moving into contact, working low and stretchy, and reminded her what manners are for a stabled horse then back out into a hilly field (off property as her land is flat flat flat).

Listen to your horse. Give him the time he needs. 4 year olds often aren’t ready for year round work and short bursts of a few weeks with nice vacations in between can be a good approach. Warmbloods are notoriously slow to mature (although this of course varies by bloodlines and individual). The bigger he is, the more time he’ll need. Better to be slow in the basics now and have a fab horse for a good long run!

Also, even though my friend goes slow with her babies, they almost all even out by age 7-8, as in they’re all around 4th/PSG competition-quality by that point. They all take their own path, but aside from injuries, they get there around the same time. Some just need more time in certain phases of their training than others

[Windermere]

First off, I’m really sorry for the situation you’re in, and wish the best for your guy and his recovery. But I wanted to address this:

@todaysalter

The youngster seems to like the higher level frame - he volunteers this frame over the longer frame.

Dressage is about developing the horse gymnastically, and a lot of the time, it’s doing the exact opposite of what the horse wants to do, in order to create a supple, responsive horse. As Charlotte Dujardin says, you want to ride the hot horses with the leg on, the lazy horses with the leg off. Because horses - and humans - work in a way that compensated for their weaknesses, rather than correctly using their whole bodies.

The horses who want to be too short and high in the neck? Stretchy trot. The horse who gets overbent and falls out the outside shoulder? Renvers.

As others have correctly pointed out, a higher frame is a way to get out of using his back correctly. It might looks pretty, but it’s an illusion, and he’s paying for it in his body. I would make the focus of every ride lifting his back, and allowing his neck position to be wherever makes it easiest to do that (which pretty much means a low neck, but also finding exactly where that place is based on his conformation). As he learns to lift, then you’ll need to start connecting him back to front, where he’s a bit more packaged up, so to speak, than the stretchy trot. (Think a pseudo low/deep/round, but again, the focus is on the best way to help him work over the back.) This is the start of lifting him back up, because you start to contain and recycle the energy, rather than a full stretchy trot. And even as he gains the strength to move up the levels, I would return to this place a lot - it’s pretty much where all the GP riders warm up.

Of course, I’d keep a good vet in the conversation throughout all of this process - but I wouldn’t completely despair, because I’ve seen good, truly over the back work undo a lot of problems. He’s also young and still growing, which would give me a lot of hope that some of the damage might be undone just through normal healing. And I would absolutely ditch any trainer who talked too much about the poll being the highest point or what kind of frame he needs for X level. Yes, that might be the end result, but it’s not how you get there.

[2tempe]

Friend at my barn having very similar issue w/ her youngster. just coming 4. Started out quite well; light riding, an off-site or two. Then balky, no forward, thinking about bucking. First vet said suspensory problem, stall rest. Owner was somehow sceptical so took horse to clinic for nuclear scintigraphy test. Found a bone cyst on the elbow. No suspensory problem. Not a great diagnosis but now she knows now what to deal with. Point of this is: it might be worth a second vet look. Also, not that hard to shoot films of the neck.

If you even have to think that trainer may not follow protocol, then it is NOT the trainer you want. Get horse out of there.

[4wdNstraight]

My 4 year old Andy wants to carry his neck in a second level frame. We are spending all our time trying to lengthen his neck into a true training level frame. Easier said then done. My trainer says many people just go with it and never get that long and low piece, and it shows up all through their future work. She said she once had another baroque horse in training that had to do long and low for a solid year before he was ready to ride a test in the show ring. After that, he progressed quite rapidly. A four year old isn’t strong enough to be working in that frame, and they need the long and low piece to help develop their backs too. That being said, it’s hard to find trainers who will take the time to lay down the proper foundation. Just give him some time to grow and change. I follow my vet first, and my trainer second.

[2DogsFarm]

@Dutchmare433

I’d give him some time off and start back slowly in the spring. I think most 4 year olds should be working on the basics. Forward, obedient, on the bit, etc. And hacking out as much as possible.

I’m guessing that this horse is looking like a 2nd level horse in the neck and a training level horse in the hind end…it really doesn’t matter that he prefers to keep his neck like that, you’re trainer needs to teach him to stretch out before teaching him to compress.

(sorry for editing down your Quote @DutchMare)
OP: THIS!
Unless your trainer has DVM after her name her advice is not on a level with your vet’s.
Your horse, your $$, but I’d be looking for a new trainer if this one does not go with MY program.

[tinah]

I busted my mare back to a sidepull for months because she is naturally collected enough to fake it. the stretch and lift has to be real.
And turned my almost 5 year old “baby” out to pasture because the winter weather is icky. Sometimes we go out and hack out, but when he is still growing he get discombobulated and frustrated because his bits don’t work right. When he gets time to sort it out on his own, he goes better. When I pull him up in the spring for 3-4 days a week, alternating days off, we will start with lots of walking on a loose rein (and maybe 15-20 minute rides), being a buddy to the mare on outings, little fun jumps, and walking on asphalt for a mile or so after he’s up to 1 hour- 1.5 hours riding at home.
Slow? You bet your ass. He’s the horse of my dreams, that I thought I would never, never be able to have. “I wish I’d moved faster with that horse” said nobody ever.

[todaysalter]

Thank you all for your support, thoughts and - yes - even some blunt and hard to hear advice. Although this alter is new, I’ve been around COTH long enough under my regular login to realize that this sort of consensus is validation of the advice given. Thank you all for taking the time to talk me down from the ledge and give me the nudge I need to be my horse’s advocate. It is just a lot to process. In some ways it would be easier if he had a stupid accident and not a result of my mistakes, but I can’t compound those mistakes with more. On the upside, I am hopeful we have caught this early enough and can work it through. Vet was very positive and relayed many of the things you have said - her horse with similar issues took a long time to work through them (years) but then when he was ready, progressed quite fast and caught up with his training.