Gag bit- action question?

[CHoff]

Hi all,
Question about gag action-

Would a product like this that lets you convert any bridle into a gag ( https://marystack.com/nunn-finer-leather-gag-hanger/ ) differ at all from the action of a traditional gag bit with gag cheeks?
(https://marystack.com/dyon-thin-rope-gag-cheek-pieces/?sku=130888-004&gclid=Cj0KCQiAzeSdBhC4ARIsACj36uExwTzBzxE0sXXhtz5LKHmErn362R6tGceBbxLvO2uR90_YzyQniewaAnbYEALw_wcB )

It appears that the first product may have a different action, as the rope isn’t fixed in a space at the bottom of the bit, and can slide up.
Please let me know thoughts! I’d love to continue using my regular bit, but want to make sure I’m getting the lifting action.

Thank you!

[NancyM]

A gag works best with two reins, one “pulley” rein, and one regular snaffle rein. That way, you only get the gag action IF the horse goes to tow or pull DOWN on your hand. If they don’t do that, it just works as a regular snaffle. And since they learn that pretty quickly, the gag rarely comes into action. This contraption wouldn’t interest me, it looks cumbersome. Need less “stuff” on the horse’s head.

[CHoff]

Right, I would use 2 reins. I’m just wondering if the action of the gag rein would be different with that first setup than the traditional setup. Since the running cheeks don’t travel through a fixed point at the bottom of the bit, I’m imagining it would work slightly differently?

If at all possible, I’d love to stay with my current bit. KK Loose ring. Which is why I’m asking

Huge front ended mare dumps straight down on the forehand when first asked for a trot accompanied by a rooting action- works out of it in 5 minutes usually, but the first 5 are hairy. Leg/whip pushes her further onto the forehand and I have minimal steering or brakes during that 5. So I want to try this route to teach her a different behavior.

[StormyDay]

In That particular photo it appears that they rein is attached to both the gag and the bit cheek piece; so basically that would make the gag useless.

You can just buy the gag converter attachment and put it on any bridle. Here’s one option https://www.doversaddlery.com/horze-gag-cheeks/p/X1-013376/?gclid=CjwKCAiA8OmdBhAgEiwAShr409UMMOAaZwWfVfOWrypqsl4AQU4qCmOedFZBgn8xkDvE_lqOzMSNWBoCGWAQAvD_BwE

Another, if you want to keep your noseband

Walsh Instant Gag with Crown

It works with any bit. The only difference is with a gag bit you get pulling and torque action. With the converter it’s just pulling. That may or may not make any difference to your horse.

[Janet]

@NancyM

This contraption wouldn’t interest me, it looks cumbersome. Need less “stuff” on the horse’s head.

The BRIDLE they have chosen to show it with, is “cumbersome”, with the addition of a flash, and keepers for a full cheek snaffle.

But the “gag hanger” is not complicated or cumbersome…

The primary action of a gag bit is to shorten the distance between the poll and the bit when you pull on it. This is the same with with the traditional gag and this device.

The secondary action of the traditional gag is that it rotates the bit within the mouth (the part that was pointing forward points slightly downward when you pull on the rein). (Someone in another reply called this “torque”. but it isn’t torque, just rotation.) The “gag hanger” doesn’t do that.

I do not now how much difference that rotation makes. It probably depends on your horse, and why you are using a gag.

But you are definitely still getting the “lifting action”.

The third difference is that, in a traditional gag, the hole-through-the-bit prevents the small ring attached to the rein from sliding through the bit. In the “gag bit hanger” you pictured there does not seem to be anything preventing that ring from sliding through the bit (especially if you are using a bit with larger rings). I would be concerned that the “small ring” would slide through the bit ring, and “hang up” there, and then you would no longer have a gag action. Maybe if you adjusted it so the “small ring” was a couple in inches beyond the bit ring, that would not be a problem.

Personal anecdote. Many decades ago (1960s) my sister was riding a pony wo had a bit of a hard mouth, and liked to go fast. She was working on transitioning him from a pelham to a snaffle. She was on the Pony Club Games team, and the rules at the time said you could only use a snaffle. While I had never seen a gag bit in person, I had seen pictures and descriptions, and decided that was what she needed as an “emergency brake”. I rigged up something that worked similarly to the device above, in addition to the regular rein, to be her “emergency brake”. (I no longer remember exactly how I constricted it, but it didn’t have a ring that connected to the rein.) It worked as intended.

[NancyM]

The leather cheek piece would become loose on the side of the horse’s face when you engaged the gag. That’s what I would find cumbersome. If you need to use a gag snaffle, go buy one. They aren’t expensive. A multiple choice of different mouthpieces available.

[Janet]

@StormyDay

In That particular photo it appears that they rein is attached to both the gag and the bit cheek piece; so basically that would make the gag useless.

I agree that “That particular photo” is confusing. But here is another picture of the same device, in which it is clear that the rein is only attached to the small ring on the gag hanger.

Nunn Finer Gag Hanger

[StormyDay]

@Janet

@StormyDay

In That particular photo it appears that they rein is attached to both the gag and the bit cheek piece; so basically that would make the gag useless.

I agree that “That particular photo” is confusing. But here is another picture of the same device, in which it is clear that the rein is only attached to the small ring on the gag hanger.

https://www.farmhousetack.com/products/nunn-finer-gag-hanger?pr_prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=f1f7d6022&pr_rec_pid=5249671463061&pr_ref_pid=6893238419641&pr_seq=uniform

Yes, and I just realized it’s not a whole bridle for sale, just the hanger.

[Sarah616]

I used one on my horse who, the older he got, became more and more particular about the amount of bridle he wore. He was long and I am short and he would get heavy, so I liked to have something a little more than a simple snaffle. This was a very easy solution. I can’t imagine how the small ring would get on the wrong side of the bit unless the insta-gag is adjusted incorrectly. I never noticed any difference from the insta-gag vs a conventional gag, it just enabled me to use whatever mouth piece my horse wanted that day without needing more bits. It is also not cumbersome, it’s just a simple strap.
Trying to attach a picture of my horse in action with his so you can see that it doesn’t move anything else on the bridle. Let’s see if it works.

[banmharcach]

That auxiliary gag hanger looks to be a fiasco in the making as the ring could easily get caught inside the regular bit ring—-somewhat akin to why you’d use martingale stops on a running.

[Sarah616]

Also, similar to what @Janet was potentially describing, I had an instructor who wanted to try a gag action mid lesson, and instead of finding a whole new bit or bridle, just took a pair of draw reins and ran them through the bit so they buckled at the top of the crown piece, which made them act as just a second rein. (Went from the buckled end in my hands straight through the bit, snapped together over the crown piece) Didn’t go to the girth or anything, just created the same leverage action that the insta-gag creates, although not maybe a smoothly. But it worked for a trial run and we could then decide if we wanted to try an actual gag or not.

[Janet]

@Sarah616

I can’t imagine how the small ring would get on the wrong side of the bit unless the insta-gag is adjusted incorrectly.

Such as the way it is adjusted in the picture the OP posted.