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Gag bits?

Don’t know your horse but IME horses that are not happy to lift or be light in their front end are usually weak in their hind end (whether due to conformation or general fitness). I would put two reins on the gag and start working on lightening the front end gradually while doing hills, walk poles, raised caveletties, and lots of transitions to strengthen the hind end. I love short gallop sprints and downward transitions to the normal working canter once every 10 days or so. Kill two birds with one stone: cardiovascular fitness for the gallop/canter work and strengthen the hind end with the downward transition. Plus it’s fun!

I love a gag bit, but I would use it with two reins and I am sure Mr. Best wouldn’t object to that. If you had showed up in a gag with two reins to start with I doubt he would have taken the snaffle rein off.

ETA: Also play with the mouth piece of the gag if your horse continues to object to it. He may prefer rubber, thinner metal, etc.

[QUOTE=Perfect10;7745054]
I think you mean a Mikmar. My old horse went in one for a while and went very well in it. It looks rough but some horses really like it![/QUOTE]

Yes, you’re right! I also have a Micklem bridle . . . too similar for my aging brain.

Greg suggested I try a rubber mouthpiece gag on my very lazy (and fit) 5 yo gelding. When left to his own devices, he would prefer to shuffle around with his nose below his chest. He does not get quick or heavy by any means. He suggested I ride in the gag with minimal contact to let him find the proper balance on his own. I use it maybe every two weeks, just to flat, but it certainly makes him sit on his butt and push, even barely touching it. It is a useful tool but not a daily thing, though the push can/does certainly carry over to other rides.

He also recommended a different sort of rig (like an anti grazing rein to prevent him from going too low) but that was not a good fit. Try it and take what works for you and your horse.

I have one who goes in a single jointed gag (happy mouth) with - gasp! - one rein. Put the second rein on as a snaffle rein and he takes insane advantage. He’ll end up fighting you the whole ride because he knows that you’ll go to the snaffle rein before using the gag rein. So we removed the snaffle rein and voila! A soft, respectful horse. Go figure! He’s pretty educated, so I don’t take a lot of direct contact with him; I ride him primarily from my leg and seat and keep a light feel of his mouth. But when he gets strong/heavy, I have something there that will back him off when he tries to blow through my other aids. Not the “proper” way to use the bit, for sure, but it works for us and everyone is happy with the set up :slight_smile:

I have a horse that pulls down between the fences and on the turns WHEN WE SHOW. He does not do this at home or when we school elsewhere. So, I attribute it to nerves…and because he does not do it at home I am not sure how to train him out of it. He is a very quiet, intelligent horse…very very quiet. So , do I do Depo for the nerves/emotional response?? I leased him once and they used Perfect Prep etc.etc. and nothing worked.

[QUOTE=Claudius;7746058]
I have a horse that pulls down between the fences and on the turns WHEN WE SHOW. He does not do this at home or when we school elsewhere. So, I attribute it to nerves…and because he does not do it at home I am not sure how to train him out of it. He is a very quiet, intelligent horse…very very quiet. So , do I do Depo for the nerves/emotional response?? I leased him once and they used Perfect Prep etc.etc. and nothing worked.[/QUOTE]

No…do not use Depo for this…jeesh. How about a trainer to help you in warm up and analyze your ride? Are you sure you also aren’t changing in the ring? Some horses do get revved up in the ring - you have to learn how to ride it.

[QUOTE=Claudius;7746058]
I have a horse that pulls down between the fences and on the turns WHEN WE SHOW. He does not do this at home or when we school elsewhere. So, I attribute it to nerves…and because he does not do it at home I am not sure how to train him out of it. He is a very quiet, intelligent horse…very very quiet. So , do I do Depo for the nerves/emotional response?? I leased him once and they used Perfect Prep etc.etc. and nothing worked.[/QUOTE]

Does he do this on the schooling day as well? And is it just when you are at shows, or whenever you are off location in genral?
The same sort of thing happens with my guy! But its not limited to just at shows, usually just when i have him in a new environment. Id say it could be more of a training problem but if you were looking for a bit recommendation I would highly recommend a rubber mullen mouth pelham for hunters and possibly you can see how he does in a gag w/ 2 reins if you do jumpers?

Also try just taking him to as many shows as possible so that eventually you wont get nervous and he will have more experience in a show environment.

Thanks VanessaJ…he is very quiet at shows and schooling. He has been to mulitiple shows at WEF and locally in Pa. He goes with his nose out and is very light to ride …he just bares down on the turns and feels a little like he wants to buck sometimes, ruining an otherwise good round. He NEVER does this anywhere else,except at Boyd’s in a jumper schooling show. When I leased him, in spite of my suggestions, they bitted him more and more severely and he got worse and worse. I took him back and just hung out for a few weeks (this was in Fla.)…He was best when I rode him in a Nathe. He was happier and more generious…BUT when he did bare down I was not strong enough to get him up comfortably . This week I am trying a broken Pelham. The way he wants to go is on a loopy rein. He balances himself that way and the ride is just “leg, sit UP UP UP and push to whatever distance is there”. It is a great ride…until he takes a notion to bare down and humps his back on the turns. I have seldom used a gag…and ofcourse, can not use it in a class…which is the only time he does it. While going in a jumper school at a local farm he did it worse …never before or after has he done it while schooling…but the constant turning on the jumper school he took exception to greatly. Sounded like a fun idea, but not for him!

Hm thats a tough situation!
From reading your description it seems like more of a celebratory/silly thing that he does rather than a mechanical issue. Horses always know when they’re in the show ring:)
I am a huge advocate for pelhams, so i’d say to experiment with different mouthpieces/curb chain lengths and find which he likes best.
Also you may want to have a pro ride him in a class and have their opinion on what they they think is going on!

[QUOTE=Claudius;7746645]
Thanks VanessaJ…he is very quiet at shows and schooling. He has been to mulitiple shows at WEF and locally in Pa. He goes with his nose out and is very light to ride …he just bares down on the turns and feels a little like he wants to buck sometimes, ruining an otherwise good round. He NEVER does this anywhere else,except at Boyd’s in a jumper schooling show. When I leased him, in spite of my suggestions, they bitted him more and more severely and he got worse and worse. I took him back and just hung out for a few weeks (this was in Fla.)…He was best when I rode him in a Nathe. He was happier and more generious…BUT when he did bare down I was not strong enough to get him up comfortably . This week I am trying a broken Pelham. The way he wants to go is on a loopy rein. He balances himself that way and the ride is just “leg, sit UP UP UP and push to whatever distance is there”. It is a great ride…until he takes a notion to bare down and humps his back on the turns. I have seldom used a gag…and ofcourse, can not use it in a class…which is the only time he does it. While going in a jumper school at a local farm he did it worse …never before or after has he done it while schooling…but the constant turning on the jumper school he took exception to greatly. Sounded like a fun idea, but not for him![/QUOTE]

I’ll throw this out there just for interest sake.

Certain horses with mild navicular syndrome (or claudal heel pain), may go fine on a straight line and/or on certain types of footings.

One of the tests for the clinical examination of navicular, is to lunge a horse on a circle on soft and then on hard footing (some horses are better on soft, some better on hard).

The lameness is typically noticed on the inside forelimb while on the lunge line.

If I’m understanding correctly and the horse only has this issue at one particular show ground. Then it may be prudent to notice the type of footing where the issue occurs (if you haven’t already).

Alterhorse…thank you for that info. I have made an appt. with the vet on Monday. Two years ago I had him xrayed, he was clean, but we injected his coffin joints and he was much improved.l I had forgotten that. His rads look perfect…but he sure felt better.

[QUOTE=Claudius;7746058]
I have a horse that pulls down between the fences and on the turns WHEN WE SHOW. He does not do this at home or when we school elsewhere. So, I attribute it to nerves…and because he does not do it at home I am not sure how to train him out of it. He is a very quiet, intelligent horse…very very quiet. So , do I do Depo for the nerves/emotional response?? I leased him once and they used Perfect Prep etc.etc. and nothing worked.[/QUOTE]

I’m willing to bet the difference is you. Your energy changes, you may ride more tensely and he recognizes that and changes his way of going. So, the key to fixing it might be adjusting your ride.

For instance, yesterday I was working on getting my horse round. It was a dressage day so I was sitting more in my conscious dressage seat and we just couldn’t get it. Finally, my trainer told me to ride in a half seat and suddenly everything came together. My guess is that, coming from a hunter background, I’m just more comfortable there so I was able to have a little better feel and be less tense because I was thinking less about me being in the right position. Then from there, I was able to slowly straighten up and still keep my horse in the right place. The same concept can apply to the show ring where we’re trying to do so many things right that the feel and flow just gets lost.

[QUOTE=Claudius;7747937]
Alterhorse…thank you for that info. I have made an appt. with the vet on Monday. Two years ago I had him xrayed, he was clean, but we injected his coffin joints and he was much improved.l I had forgotten that. His rads look perfect…but he sure felt better.[/QUOTE]

Glad the info was of help.

One of our horses also had clean x-rays, yet had a persistent tendency for an intermittent, slight (Grade .5 or 1) lameness on a circle in soft footing. The horse would become sound with the palmar digital nerves blocked.

This horse was therapeutically shod with plastic pads, and we saw a lot of improvement.

The cause of claudal heel pain in horses can sometimes be dificult to diagnosis (it’s not always “classic” navicular as the cause), and if injecting his coffin joints helped in the past, I agree that a workup with your vet sounds like a good idea.

As others said, a nervous rider can effect a horse too, but when you said only on circles, it reminded me of that other horse, so I thought I’d mention the concept of the heal pain. Although nervous riders causing issues are probably preferred to physical problems causing them, it’s still a good idea to rule out the physical if there’s enough evidence.

It feels better knowing that you’re not bitting up a horse who’s behavior is possibly being caused by pain.

Good luck with your boy.

“claudial” was that a brain slip?..lol
I am sure you meant “caudal” but in replying to Claudius it became claudial :smiley:

I too was going to say some horses with front feet or hock pain can bear down on the turns.

[QUOTE=mroades;7748291]
“claudial” was that a brain slip?..lol
I am sure you meant “caudal” but in replying to Claudius it became claudial :smiley:

I too was going to say some horses with front feet or hock pain can bear down on the turns.[/QUOTE]

Yes I did mean caudal! :lol:

Dang those freudian slips…

I thought it was awesome, and so something I would do. :lol:

I ride an older, very heavy on the bridle in a two rein pelham and other of the same kind in a gag- as long as you use them both well and without heavy handidness, I love them.
However, I wouldn’t want someone who didn’t know frames, or the horses in these bits because if used incorrectly, there is a chance for a violent reaction.

OP, I would go ahead and give the gag a try.

I’ve ridden with Greg quite a lot, and not only is he a master at selecting the most appropriate bit for a rider and horse but he also commonly discusses how the horse may offer a number of different resistances when the bitting or the riding changes and the horse is no longer able to get away with what he’s used to getting away with. So I would’t be overly concerned that he is offering resistances at this point, but a good coach - or a video for us to evaluate - would be most helpful in determining if the bit isn’t a good match or if he just needs to put on his big boy pants :winkgrin:

I’ve seen Greg have the rider use one rein because the rider was not proficient with two. I’ve also seen him use one rein because the horse was strong enough that two reins was too mild. And sometimes if the new bridle/bit is brought out with just one rein, he’ll not ask for a second unless it seems necessary (and vice versus if it’s brought out with two).

How skilled of a rider are you? How does your horse go in a simple snaffle? The benefit of having two reins is to be able to ride primarily off of the snaffle rein and only engage the gag rein when it is needed. This means the rider knows how to engage the reins independently of each other and has the timing to engage the gag rein - or release it - appropriately. As well, to ride primarily off of the snaffle rein, the horse must go mostly well in snaffle and need the gag more situationally - it goes nicely to the jumps, for example, but bears down afterwards. Or it flats nicely but gets heavy whilst jumping.

In my experience, using two reins with even pressure on both reins is somewhat of a middle ground but it also tends to make the horse a bit dull to the bit.

I would only recommend trying the two reins if you feel you can use them in the manner described above. If you are a more novice rider, I would recommend sticking with the one rein as it is easier to handle. If the one rein truly is too much bit for the horse (again, it’s hard to say without watching you ride him), then two would be the step-down of choice, just work on your technique as you ride. Many people don’t realize that there is a technique to two reins - to have the benefits, it’s not as simple as just being able to hold/pull with two reins.

Greg’s chief interest is getting the rider to achieve the maximum amount of change in a small period of time. My guess is that the bit helped achieve the change that he wanted you to be able to create and feel. I would recommend thinking about what change the bit promoted and what you need to be doing going forward beyond a simple bit change to make those changes more permanent.

Generally, horses who bear down and get strong as it sounds like yours does need to learn to engage the hind end whilst lifting the shoulder and wither (vs. dumping on the forehand). They need to engage the abdominal muscles, bend the hocks, and allow the hind end to engage vs. the front end pulling along. The gag is helpful in making them more likely to lift the shoulder, but be aware that without working on this specific problem, the gag will likely lose effect down the line as the horse figures it out or becomes used to it.

You should think about doing a lot of proper transitions, hill work, grid work, and specific ring patterns to help him strengthen his hind end and work more correctly. He may always need the gag, but likely as he gets stronger and more correct, he may be able to back down to a milder bit - or to the gag with two reins. I’m happy to expound on exercises that are helpful for this type of horse if you’re interested.

Good luck!

Mac123, I love a good exercise! Please share.

[QUOTE=Justice;7749724]
Mac123, I love a good exercise! Please share.[/QUOTE]

:slight_smile: Here’s a few of my favorite general recommendations for the type of horse the OP describes. If you have any particulars to add, let me know and I’ll give any additional thoughts.

Two notes: I do believe it’s important to have a horse that gets strong and on the forehand bitted correctly. Too little bit and one will become exhausted fighting; to much bit and the horse is likely to be artificially backed off. My preference is to have them in something that they are “aware” of - not afraid of, not pulling through, but aware of enough that a moderate aid sinks in.

Second, it’s important to set exercises that allow the horse to learn. They need to be aware that if they listen to you, their life is easier. If they ignore you, their life is harder. So generally I set things that encourage the horse to stay very mentally engaged. I also try to not to over manage the horse. Our job is to provide them information; their job is to listen and react. Allowing them to fail vs. always manufacturing the perfect ride is the big difference in the horse really improving.

–Set a line of trot poles down the quarterline (or close to the rail) of the long side. The first time around, trot through the poles. Proceed on a straight line and then entering the short side, pick up a canter. Canter to about halfway down the following long side and transition to trot. As you continue this pattern, you will first begin to keep cantering longer until finally you are transitioning to trot as close to the trot poles as possible while still getting good trot poles. Then you will begin to shorten the time between your trot-to-canter transition so that you are cantering within a few steps of the trot poles.

The goal is to trot the poles, 1-2 strides up to canter on the straight line, canter around and trot 1-2 strides before the poles.

You will want to vary your expectations depending on the horse, rider and ring size (this is much harder in a small ring, very easy in a big ring). You can also modify this exercise by adding a second set of trot poles on the opposite long side and/or making the trot poles raised cavaletti.

For a horse that wants to blow through one shoulder or the other, add a few moments of leg yield left or right through the poles to just after the poles to really get them balanced and off the shoulder they’re leaning on.

The goal of this exercise is to allow the trot poles to naturally balance the horse in preparation for the upward transition, encouraging him to step up into the canter. This is why it’s important to progress to cantering soon after the trot poles. Additionally most horses get long and strung out during the downward transition, so having the trot poles immediately afterwards encourages the horse to re-balance.

–You can add difficulty to the above exercise by working it into jumping work and adding additional trot poles. IE. Trot poles on long side, pick up canter immediately, canter over diagonal single, back to trot, trot pole set at end of arena on short side, canter, canter single on the long side, trot the trot poles going the opposite direction that you started.

This obviously has the benefits of the above exercise for the horse, but a lot of times the rider doesn’t ride the backside of the fence the way they do the front side. Making a specific spot to transition downward, trot a pole, and then transition upward, is like a more thorough half-halt and gives the rider a specific plan on the backside.

–Set a single jump in the middle of the arena perpendicular to the long side. As you jump the jump, your end goal will be to land and turn within a few strides, circling back to the jump. You can begin by keeping a bigger circle. Depending on the horse, alternate directions (figure 8) or do one direction continuously before changing directions. This really gets the horse thinking about what the rider is asking, particularly if you vary the pattern so the horse isn’t sure which way he will turn. As well, the land-and-turn will get them to re-balance over their hocks naturally. It’s important to keep the position solid in the air. An opening rein is fine, but don’t help too much. Think about your body telling them what’s coming, and then let them struggle through a bit (running into the aids or the bit even) until they begin to pay more attention, balance, and stay with you through their own self-preservation.

–Turn on the forehand/haunches. I like to combine this with hill-work, actually. We have a big hill that leads to a flat grassy area by a pond, which is perfect. I walk a hill, then at the top, I will walk a straight line on the aids about 60ish feet, do a turn on the forehand 180* and immediately proceed into a sitting trot back down the 60ish feet, nice transition to a walk, do a turn on the haunches 180* and then prompt transition again into the trot.

I repeat this, interspersing going back down the hill and coming back up and doing more of the turns/transitions.

I find that the turn going right into the trot gets that hind end super engaged, while keeping it a short line and following with a downward transition into another lateral movement keeps them from falling apart. You can do this with the canter, too, if they’re strong enough.

Interspersing this with straight hill work really gets their hind end underneath them in so many different ways - down hill, up hill, forward, downward, laterally.

This is actually what I do the first ride of every week. I find it gets them really well prepared for the week of work, and being out of the ring they don’t realize they’re working!

–Finishing with bounces. If you have the ring space for it, setting a bounce just before the corner following a jump is great for the ones that want to dive through the corner. So, set a single on the longside, and then set a bounce at the end of the ring on that straight line, allowing for 3ish strides before the end of the ring. This one is pretty self explanatory, but very helpful. In lack of space, do a gymnastic of a one to a two to a bounce.

–If you’re hacking, make it a goal to do xx amount of transitions, to not do more than one straight line in a row, and to change directions xx amount of times. You want to be thinking, thinking, thinking and you want the same for your horse. We all get stuck in the rut around the ring. Ride 30 transitions and change directions 15 times. Do 20 lateral movements and 20 circles. Or whatever numbers you pick. OR, create a pattern. Trot at the red fence. A the blue jump, pick up the canter through the short side, rolling back past the stone wall, to the halt. Etc.

One last thing to mention - most horses that have these tendencies don’t move forward off the leg correctly. They tend to more forward and down or forward and sideways instead of forward and up. Remember that the correct reaction to the leg is more impulsion or stride length without a negative change in balance. Most horses do not do this well - they spring a leak left or right or dive toward the ground. The best of exercises and persistence can do wonders, but without getting the horse really correct off the leg at all 3 gaits, it’s hard to get a really well-balanced horse.

I hope some of that was helpful or interesting!