Gaining Trust

Just for clarification before I begin, this is NOT the horse I spoke of in my previous post “In a Tough Situation.”

How do you gain the trust of a horse?

At the farm where I volunteer and work around horses, there is an old welsh pony we use for pony rides. The pony rides are something I don’t particularly agree with, but it is out of my hands because he is the farm’s horse not mine. The pony is in his twenties.This welsh pony was a rescue pony the farm rescued from a bad situation. He was emaciated and very skittish from his abusive past. For this reason he was not worked and became a pasture puff. About a year ago however, one women at the farm began gaining this pony’s trust and love. She was eventually able to bring him into the barn to groom and whatever else needed to be done. The pony, who was very friendly at this point began to be used for pony rides. These are short pony rides only once or twice a week, he was not excessively used. However, despite being a very friendly horse only the women who originally gained his trust was able to catch him. They had a bond nobody else did with him. Due to unforeseeable complications not revolving around this pony, the women is not at the farm anymore and most likely will not be for quite a long time. I want to gain this pony’s trust because he has been left with no one. This is not for riding purposes, but rather companionship purposes. He needs a person caring for him and a person for him to care for (in my opinion). I made this post to ask for ways to gain the trust of this pony. I know this won’t be over-night, I am willing to put the time in for this pony.

There are definitely the more common, “spend time, treats, patience,” way of earning trust. Definitely try to get to the root of his trust issues/abuse trauma. However, I know a fellow rider who swears by joining up. She uses it every time she rides even with her own horse, and she accounts it to a stronger trusting relationship between the two.

EDIT: clearly joining up is a process but earning his trust will require an extraordinary amount of patience. but if you don’t have much experience, maybe reach out to a horse trainer who uses this method. joining up is a very natural process of building trust but it can be very rewarding. Best of luck!

a bag of carrots/peppermints goes a long way, when only scratches and treats are at the end of the trail.
Grab the latest Louis L’Amour, a chair and read pony some adventure stories.

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Trust just takes time. There aren’t shortcuts. Just spend a little time with him every time you’re out…a lil walk, hand grazing, grooming, and some treats. Make sure pony respects you and minds his manners. Maybe try some ground work games with him too so it’s interactive. Time, effort, patience, and more time…

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A lot of times, with a grouchy old horse, just catching them giving them treats and a few scratches in favorite places for a couple minutes and letting them loose again is enough to get them thinking you’re not all that bad a person. Just a few minutes at a time- hopefully the little dude will decide he likes your company and will hang around and want more attention when you let him go. Or if nobody can catch him, treats, a lawn chair and a book sound like a good idea- if he was friendly and gave pony rides at one point surely he’s no outlaw.

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After reading this article about using robotic cars to mimic joining-up, I would be reluctant to use some of those techniques:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/29810/remote-controlled-cars-used-to-study-round-pen-training

Would it be possible to contact/email the woman who had gained the pony’s trust and ask what activities she used?

Thanks for all the help! He is sweet as can be to everyone, minds his manners, loves a good scratch, good with kids. He just runs away when almost everyone goes into the field. It’s almost as if he tolerates everyone but is very picky on who he likes if that makes sense. His paddock mate is a gray percheron (he is a gray welsh) and funnily enough everyone thinks they’re mom and colt!

IrishBirdCatcher: That isn’t really an option at this moment, but as far as I know she just worked with him a lot. Going into his paddock, treats, etc. That’s what I plan on doing aswell.

Horses can get addicted to aniseed treats!

Also, horses do like consistency - they get worried if someone is different every time they see them, but I can tell from your post you are not like that or you would not be caring enough to want to do this.

Join up happens naturally when he trust you, but there are a few cues.

At the risk of sounding like a harda$$:

OP, you seem like your heart is in the right place, but some of the things you are saying tell me you don’t really have a good understanding of how horses think. You have an eagerness to make friends and work with these way-ward type horses, but you don’t know the first thing about how to really interact with a horse. I think this was made clear in your last thread about the poorly mannered Thoroughbred.

I’d encourage you to find the following books, if you’re really interested in learning:

“True Unity” and “True Horsemanship through Feel” by Tom Dorrance
“Think Harmony with Horses” by Ray Hunt

These two men were the masters of horsemanship: they understood HOW horses thought, HOW they worked, and they were able to successfully work with thousands of horses and saddle back thousands of colts in their lifetimes. If you want to be successful at reading horses and then communicating back to them, you need to start by making a commitment to learn more.

Many people in the last thread, myself included, strongly recommended you take some lessons or at least find an instructor who can help guide you. I still think you need to do that. In answer to your question, how does one get a horse to trust them/become friendly with them? #1, by becoming uninterested in whether the horse “loves” or even “likes” them. You get really interested in gaining that horse’s attention, you show him you’re a good place to be, a safe place to be. You show him that you can understand what he’s saying and you can extend communication back to him that says “I’ve got your back”. Sometimes that doesn’t look pretty: sometimes that means getting firm and setting absolute boundaries. But through this process the horse learns something important: that he is safest when he is with you physically and mentally, and so he CHOOSES to stay. He doesn’t just tolerate you. But you cannot learn any of this through an internet forum. You need to be in the presence of horses, you need to watch them interact with one another, and you need to find someone who is wiser than you with years of experience doing this who can help guide you.

Treats do not get a horse to trust you. Treats to not get a horse to love or care about you. Treats used in this way are a bribe, no matter what anyone says. A bribe is a reward that is given before the horse does something, a ploy to get the horse to do what you want. If you go out into a field to catch your horse and you need a bucket of grain to do so, then you are admitting you need to bribe your horse to come to you. That’s just what it is. What this pony is saying is “I haven’t been shown a good enough deal by humans to want to come up to them of my own free will”. You may get him easier to be caught if you give him treats all the time but that does NOT equal trust. Please get clear on that.

I think you also need to understand that working with horses is not always light and pretty. I’ve seen some of the best horsemen in the world work with some horses that needed to get very clear on how to be with people, and a lot of it looked pretty rough. But it wasn’t: these guys knew EXACTLY when to add pressure, EXACTLY when to back off, and EXACTLY how to get it through to the horse that what they were trying wasn’t going to work. The horse was always better off for it, but no amount of peppermints and petting would have gotten him there.

So let go of this idea that any horse “needs” anything from you. This pony, again, like the Thoroughbred, so long as he has water, food and shelter, and herdmates who don’t run him ragged, is just fine without people meddling with him.

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Lots of short sessions of positive interactions will help. Always end on a positive note and do not try to force the trust/friendship issue, if pony is not that into you on a given day, so be it. I have had several ponies like this and it has sometimes taken over a year before they start to trust and enjoy any interactions with people. I have one right now that has bee here two years and he is just now loosing the defensive attitude he had when I got him.
I would not give too many treats or you may encourage him to get mouthy. My guys love being scratched and that’s what they get as a reward most of the time.

Carolyn Resnick has a wonderful method for working with unhanded (wild) horses.

http://carolynresnickblog.com

Louis L’Amour is a great idea, but the “latest” Louis L’Amour? You do realize that the “latest” Louis L’Amour book was published about 30 years ago?

OP, you don’t have to read to the pony. You can make more frequent eye contact (not constant) just talking to him. Ponies are great at listening to the innermost thoughts of humans, and they don’t repeat what they hear!

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The pony (we believe) is actually deaf, but I still talk to him! We just make sure when working him (lunging and the pony parties he does) to do a lot of physical praising. Like he does a good round on the lunge line, he gets a good belly scratch, he comes to me in the field, gets a good scratch, etc etc.

:winkgrin:

@Bulldoggindude @RPM
Books are eternal guys

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IIf a horse doesn’t let you catch him it doesn’t mean he doesn’t trust you. It just means he doesn’t want to get caught and go to work.

My old pony became hard to catch on retirement pasture. If you could get your hand on her mane she would submit and do everything you wanted. Avoiding being caught was her only line of resistance.

My sister’s horse would come galloping up to you in pasture because he was confident he wasn’t going to go to work if he didn’t want to. Once you mounted he would spin around and once jumped a ditch back into pasture. He had lots of resistance and didn’t need to avoid being caught.

Both these horses had been good kids horses ridden every day when we kept them.stabled but lost their manners when we went to college and let them live semi retired on pasture.

My current horse lets me catch her easily, is a doll on the ground now, but still tries to mutiny a bit under saddle.

They have different lines of resistance.

After all these years I am increasingly unclear what it really means for a horse to love you or trust you.

IME horses tend to either trust all.humans generally and to feel safe in the situations we introduce them to, or they don’t.

If they build trust with one owner it tends to be transferable. And if they have a bad experience with something they will be reactive to that situation with everyone. Is why you don’t let idiots trailer your horse for you, for Instance.

If the horse “only trusts one person” I expect that is the only person in the horse’s world with decent horse skills

Now there may be the odd wild abused mustang who genuinely only bonds with one person. But I think that is rather rare. Most horses extrapolate from the good care of their owner to expect the same of the rest of the world.

This doesn’t mean they always do exactly what you want. But it means that when they don’t, it isn’t because they don’t trust you. It’s because they prefer to do something else and think they can assert themselves.

So indeed they may trust and love you too much, but not respect you. For instance my current horse’s preference for a trail ride would be to spend the whole hour with her face in a hedge grazing. My preference is to go forward at a brisk trot. My preference wins out because I am a human with long range goals and she is just a horse but also because I have decent riding skills. For other riders she has been known to march back to the barn. Not bolt exactly just march, if you can imagine bolting at a fast walk. Not that she doesn’t trust them. She just knows they can’t stop her.

So “trust” is only part of the picture. And when you are dealing with a wise old pony who is perfectly calm and relaxed in work, it isn’t an issue of trust above all else. It’s that he prefers to be left alone.

Now if he was spooking and bolting and obviously afraid yes, there is a question of trust.

Many of the western horse manship trainers got their experience and insights from dealing either with true feral horses (mustangs) or range bred young stock that was effectively almost feral. That’s why they put such emphasis on join up and trust and round pen.

Most of us outside ranch country don’t ever encounter such horses. Either they are well broke by the time we meet them, or they have been handled as babies aand halter broke at 3 days old.

When a tame good citizen horse develops bad habits it generally isn’t because of lack of basic trust.

Another possibility is that even the amount of work OPs old pony does caused him physical or mental stress. How does a deaf horse react to stimuli? Does he find it stress ful that he doesn’t always know what’s happening? Or perhaps his back hurts or he hated having children constantly on or off?

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@Scribbler

When you go to catch him from his paddock, before he realizes he’s going to be brought into the barn or whatever he is actually quite calm. If he sees no halter strung over their shoulder he’s a sweetie pie. But it is when he realizes we want to catch him that he starts being flighty and spook-y.

For example, today I went to get him from his field to graze him and bring him into the barn. Not to be tacked up and worked. I brought an apple (his favorite treat) and he came right up to me to get the apple. I’m fumble a little bit with halters sometimes so what I usually do with horses is swing the lead rope around (gently, not whipping it down) their neck and then putting the halter on. I did this yesterday and he acted much better then I expected. He did try to run for a split second but stopped. This time I did the same thing, but he spooked at the lead rope being swung over. When this pony spooks he just bolts. This time he did a little bit of a buck and then bolted. I let him go and calmly walked a ways away and circled back to him. For the rest of the time I tried he would not go near me. Even for food. I stood still for awhile at some points to get him comfortable to me standing there and he would start a trot and do a little bit of a half circle and go back to his old spot. I didn’t chase him at all while he did this, I just stood there. This went on for about thirty minutes until eventually I gave up (I know it isn’t good to give up and give in to a horse but I didn’t want to stress him out further and I was short on time).

What I theorize one of the reasons for this behavior is because he is almost always only brought into the barn for these parties and for work. I think he put two and two together that catching always equals work. This is something I want to change.

He is a very spook-y pony. Usually we can calm him with no problems whatsoever, however he does occasionally break lose. It’s not that he spooks at noises specifically but I think he spooks at the fact he can see it but can’t hear it so doesn’t really know what is happening.

Like I said, I don’t think he should be continuing these parties, even if they are only once or twice a week, but that is out of my control. It’s a stressful ordeal in itself. So is several other stuff simply because, I believe, it is barely done and he is not used to it.

It’s not hat he cannot physically do this work, he canters and trots on the lunge line well and has lots of energy. But the question is if it’s good for him or for us.

His old care-taker would not only take him in for these parties, she groomed him, gave him baths, took him for walks. She worked on him with his fears. He saw her as someone who he knew would not just work him. For lack of better words, he knew she had his back. When she stopped coming so much and eventually not at all, she would not be able to catch him like she used to because he no longer thought she had his back.

First off most horses would rather hang out in a pasture than work. If you keep them in a stall they can become sweetly dependent on you for food and be very friendly but this comes from forced helplessness.

Second most horses need to do a job because people are not willing to keep unlimited numbers of retired pasture pets.

Third you have now learned that you get once chance to catch this pony and if you mess up, that’s it for the day. So behave accordingly. No fumbling.

Fourth you have been volunteering at this place for 5 months with no prior horse experience. I’m not clear what sort of facility it is. Some kind of rescue? Most commercial boarding barns either pay by the hour or do a work exchange for lessons. If you are volunteering at someone’s private or commercial barn you are getting ripped off. If it is a nonprofit organization or a charity or society or rescue that’s different.

I am unclear what training or guidance you are getting from the folks who run this place.

However, I will say this. Yes, it is important you develop your own horse sense and intuition, and running scenarios past COTH is a good way to get feedback.

But really after only 5 months and with clearly minimal supervision you do not know anything at all. At this point you can’t even catch a wary old leadline pony. Obviously his real handlers can since they catch him regularly for parties. And I doubt he is that spooky if they trust him with little children.

It is good that you notice things. But you need to be careful not to over interpret because so far you have been reporting a very normal range of horse behavior as if it is a big problem. Also you need to realise that your skills are still very very beginner and that the problems you have handling horses are much more about your own lack of skill than about the horse.

My own sweet mare would pull you into the ditch to graze every single ride or handwalk if she thought she could and tries every time. I don’t let her. But that’s just horses.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dx91mH2voo

Here’s an excellent tape of Monty Roberts “joining up” with a mare that has not been handled. Listen to him carefully. He describes how to approach a horse, any horse. He will tell you. Don’t come after them with your shoulder’s squared and your eyes on them. That’s the way a predator acts before he pounces on a horse and eats him. Horses are a prey animals. They are hard wired to run from predators. It’s better to approach a horse at an angle with one of your shoulders pointing toward him, not facing him with shoulders squared.

What you need to do is make friends with his friend, the Percheron. Give his friend lots of treats and pats. The pony will get curious and jealous and come to you. But walk away from him. He will follow. Turn away. He will still follow. The more he wants to be with you, the more you walk away. Then stand still, but don’t face him. If he doesn’t come to you, walk away again. What you are doing in horse language (according to Monty Roberts) is keeping him away from you to discipline him. Horses want a leader more than anything. You are helping your pony choose you as his leader. Eventually you will stop and he will come up and touch you with his nose. Bingo! He’s chosen you as his leader. He trusts you enough to give his freedom to you, because he wants to be led. Teach him to follow you and he will be yours.

I’ve even used this technique with stray cows. Within a few minutes they are letting me rub them all over.

Good luck! Keep working with horses. You are doing great.

P.S. I don’t believe in scaring horses by rattling flags in their face or hurting them in any way. The key to joining up is making the horse choose you as his leader. In my mind, that’s the way to do it. Read Monty Robert’s book “The Man Who Listens to Horses.” It’s an eye opener to handling horses the way they handle themselves in a herd.

You can do this!

Watching this video almost made me cry… he is so gentle with the horse (in horse language), and so understanding and kind… it breaks my heart to think of all the horses that are trained very differently.