Gaited Horse Confusion - Saddlebreds

[Scribbler]

@StormyDay

I have nothing of value to add.
Just thinking of the first person to breed a horse that had the mutation to gait. And how confused they must have been.
“George, I think there’s something wrong with your horse”
“No it just does that.”
“I kind of like it. Let’s make more”

Interestingly, gaited horses were apparently quite common in the middle ages in Britain. Before there were real roads, you traveled on horseback (or on foot). Not coaches. There would be farm wagons but they were rough and slow.

The wonderful recent thread here on COTH on the history of royal coaches pointed out that the first ceremonial coaches were built in the 1600s and suspension came along later. The big era of long haul commercial coaching started in the 1700s and ends by 185O with the creation of railroads. Fox hunting with jumping emerges as a sport after 1800 as the countryside is more and more fenced. TB breeding and racing gets consolidated over the 1700s. So I think there’s a change in horse usage from wanting gaited amblers to horses with big carriage trots or big canter gallop for hunting and racing.

In the US, the gaited breeds really emerge out of the plantation economy in the South pre civil war, where plantation owners and overseers needed to ride miles over land without roads and through fields. I expect they were able to build on older strains of gaited horses from Britain. And those plantations could be huge

The Spanish descended horses don’t typically gait, and it doesn’t really correlate with the attributes you need to work cattle in either Spanish or American style. So it doesn’t tend to turn up in Mustangs historically.

The Morgans come out of a Northern small family farm environment.

I get the impression that the South used a lot of mules as draft animals, like plowing, rather than big draft horses. Also I’m not sure of the cultivation cycle for the big Southern export crops of cotton, tobacco, and sugar originally. They may not need plowing in the same cycle as Northern grain crops. Rice definitely doesn’t. Whereas wheat on a large scale needs plowing sowing harvesting all done with horses and equipment.

Ok. Up to now I have given no thought at all to farming practices and their effect on regional breeds of horses

But my point was the gaited horses go way back to middle ages in Anglophone culture.

[Alterration]

@Scribbler

The Spanish descended horses don’t typically gait, and it doesn’t really correlate with the attributes you need to work cattle in either Spanish or American style. So it doesn’t tend to turn up in Mustangs historically.

Actually, that’s not entirely true. The Paso strains all come from the Spanish Jennet, which was a gaited breed (not a donkey), and that is a descendant of a horse that was absorbed into the PRE.

I suspect after doing research that we (and that’s a global we) have it all wrong. We think of a gaited gene as being determinant of the ability TO gait, but when I looked more into that it appeared that it didn’t have an affect on whether the Marchalanga Marchador or the Saddlebred can be gaited, nor the Standardbred, which can also pace. Even Icelandics without the gaited gene can still tölt.

It did affect whether they were easier or harder to teach, and it appears that the “CC” variant canters more easily, but not that they cannot gait. Since those with the gaited gene appear to have more problems cantering and it does NOT mean that the horse cannot gait even if the horse doesn’t have the gene present… I’d say that it’s more of a cantering gene than a gaited gene.

Since gaiting is truly just a reorganization of the limbs into a different rhythm, I’ll bet a skilled gaited horse trainer could teach a horse of almost any breed to gait. We just don’t. We selected for those that were easy to teach. As I dive more down this rabbit hole with some gaited trainers, it appears that even horses (like Saddlebreds) that don’t typically learn a running walk (for instance) which are typically taught to Walking Horses can be taught to do the running walk. We just don’t do it because that’s not what they get shown in.

I used to have Dobermans and one of mine “trotted” and one of mine paced naturally. It’s considered a fault in the doberman, but it was a very efficient gait for her. It’s all super curious!

[StormyDay]

@Alterration

@Scribbler

The Spanish descended horses don’t typically gait, and it doesn’t really correlate with the attributes you need to work cattle in either Spanish or American style. So it doesn’t tend to turn up in Mustangs historically.

Actually, that’s not entirely true. The Paso strains all come from the Spanish Jennet, which was a gaited breed (not a donkey), and that is a descendant of a horse that was absorbed into the PRE.

I suspect after doing research that we (and that’s a global we) have it all wrong. We think of a gaited gene as being determinant of the ability TO gait, but when I looked more into that it appeared that it didn’t have an affect on whether the Marchalanga Marchador or the Saddlebred can be gaited, nor the Standardbred, which can also pace. Even Icelandics without the gaited gene can still tölt.

It did affect whether they were easier or harder to teach, and it appears that the “CC” variant canters more easily, but not that they cannot gait. Since those with the gaited gene appear to have more problems cantering and it does NOT mean that the horse cannot gait even if the horse doesn’t have the gene present… I’d say that it’s more of a cantering gene than a gaited gene.

Since gaiting is truly just a reorganization of the limbs into a different rhythm, I’ll bet a skilled gaited horse trainer could teach a horse of almost any breed to gait. We just don’t. We selected for those that were easy to teach. As I dive more down this rabbit hole with some gaited trainers, it appears that even horses (like Saddlebreds) that don’t typically learn a running walk (for instance) which are typically taught to Walking Horses can be taught to do the running walk. We just don’t do it because that’s not what they get shown in.

I used to have Dobermans and one of mine “trotted” and one of mine paced naturally. It’s considered a fault in the doberman, but it was a very efficient gait for her. It’s all super curious!

I don’t know, because pasos are not taught how to gait. They are taught to improve it, but I’ve seen 2YO pasos with no prior riding experience that knew how to gait, and did it out in the field instead of trotting.
I’m not familiar enough with other breeds to comment on if their gait is trained or not. But I do know pasos absolutely gait ‘right out of the box’.

It has to be some gene that people started breeding for. Like how certain breeds of dogs herd things naturally. My friends dog tries to herd children, and was never trained to do so. My dog couldn’t herd anything even if it wanted to, but could get a duck out of a pond and bring it back to you without damaging it. You don’t really teach a dog to herd from scratch, you teach a dog how to use its born ability properly.

[Alterration]

Right - some naturally do it, but just because they don’t do it naturally doesn’t mean they can’t. Many of the horses in the gaited breeds are trotty. It’s a really strange phenomenon.

And my supposition is actually that the gene that we think controls gaitedness, doesn’t, given that almost all breeds other than the draft breeds show individuals that gait. I think it’s more inherent in more horses than just the traditional gaited breeds.

[oldernewbie]

I like what Nealia from Saddlebred rescue calls that gait when they get a horse in that does it: racky-doodle.

That’s all l’ve got to contribute to this discussion! I’ve got an Arab/Saddlebred cross and tho he can get slightly lateral from time to time, I don’t think there’s even a racky doodle in there!

[ShenanAnna]

Racky-doodle! I like that. Someone who seemed to know said it looked like he was trying to rack. All I can tell you is that it wasn’t a two-beat gait. Three- or four-beat – I didn’t see it often enough or long enough to tell you. Racky-doodle.

And he did have a fair amount of Saddlebreds in his ancestry.

[quietann]

Did some looking around, and the Morgan gait gene is the same gene as in other gaited breeds.

If your horse was pure Lippitt, it probably wasn’t gaited. But mostly Lippitt, with some Western/Brunk added, could very easily give you gait.

https://www.gaitedmorganhorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Gaited-Morgans-History.pdf had pedigree tracing of possible sources of gait, into the mid-20th century. Around page 11 or 12, you’ll start finding horses that will be within a few generations of modern gaited Morgans. My mare has 2 close crosses to Easter Vermont, who may have inherited the gait gene from his dam, Nona. She also has a couple of crosses to Mentor.

[ShenanAnna]

Thank you for that link, quietann. It got me curious, but I no longer have the papers for that smart little Morgan.

Do you know anywhere I could look him up? I tried allbreed pedigree query; it had several horses with his name, but no Morgans. I’ve looked him up online before, but either couldn’t find that site, it changed, or no longer exists.

All I remember from his breeding is Jubilee King.

ETA: never mind, I found him! Hint – it helps if you spell their name right. Now, off to try to compare breeding.

Yup, my little guy has one ancestor in that list.

[quietann]

The name Jubilee King comes up a lot in gaited Morgan pedigrees, but it seems to be a function of the mares he was bred to. He also was an important early sire of what became Quarter Horses, but under a different name, and the QH people deny that Morgans were involved in the founding of the breed… Never mind that a lot of ranch-bred mares back then were sired by Morgan Remount stallions.

[ShenanAnna]

The one name in my horse’s pedigree that was also in your article was Jubilee King’s sire, listed as non-gaited but with 2 known gaited Morgans six generations back.

Thanks for the info on Jubilee King. I read an article on him in a Morgan magazine, with nice pictures, and was really impressed with him.

Those army remount stallions, Morgan, Thoroughbred, Arabian, whatever, must have had an amazingly important effect on average American horses.

[Leather]

@Alterration

And my supposition is actually that the gene that we think controls gaitedness, doesn’t, given that almost all breeds other than the draft breeds show individuals that gait. I think it’s more inherent in more horses than just the traditional gaited breeds.

Lee Ziegler would likely agree - from Easy Gaited Horses (which was written before the DMTR3 gene was identified and she passed away so we don’t have her musings on it):

Now that you know which gaits your horse may surprise you with, the next thing you’ll probably wonder about is why he does them. The simple answer is usually, “It’s genetic.” Since just about everything in life is genetic in origin, this isn’t much help. Even if there is a “gait gene” or gene complex, it does more than crank out gaits from a mysterious black box. Genes regulate physical properties of the body. Just as the genes that determine color regulate the chemical composition of pigment in hair shafts, any genes that determine gait will regulate the parts of the body that cause horses to move.

Three elements work together to produce movement in all horses, including the complicated coordination of the easy gaits. These elements are the neurological system, the muscular and ligament systems, and the skeletal system. The process is simple: The brain / nerves fire the muscles / tendons / ligaments, and they in turn move the bones of the skeleton.
Your gaited horse changes gait according to changes in terrain because the use of his vertebral system, which is strongly related to his balance, changes with that terrain. When his body position changes with the use of his back and neck muscles and ligament system, it affects the way he moves his legs. That movement determines his gait. The source of his gait is his body.

So if you have a horse that naturally (thanks to genetics) has the phenotype to produce an easy gait, it will likely gait on its own. You can work on getting it to use its body better to influence the type/quality of easy gait. My TWH mare was super pacey when I got her, but when we worked on suppleness and strengthening and using her body right she now does a lovely saddle rack.

Even a horse that doesn’t have the typical phenotype to do an easy gait can be influenced. Think of the adage with dressage folks who say the walk is the easiest gait to “ruin.” A horse that is too tense or crammed into a frame can get a pacey walk. They won’t pace at speed, but their walk has gone from square to lateral due to their body position.

[Bluey]

@Scribbler

The Spanish descended horses don’t typically gait, and it doesn’t really correlate with the attributes you need to work cattle in either Spanish or American style. So it doesn’t tend to turn up in Mustangs historically.

There are some spanish horses that do gait, one the galiceno.
Decades ago, a neighbor imported some from Mexico that breeder had imported from Spain.
They were compact little horses that gaited along with w/t/c.
They were very goey and tough and could buck with the best.
Many ranch kids learned on them and became as tough as those little horses.

[Scribbler]

@Bluey

@Scribbler

The Spanish descended horses don’t typically gait, and it doesn’t really correlate with the attributes you need to work cattle in either Spanish or American style. So it doesn’t tend to turn up in Mustangs historically.

There are some spanish horses that do gait, one the galiceno.
Decades ago, a neighbor imported some from Mexico that breeder had imported from Spain.
They were compact little horses that gaited along with w/t/c.
They were very goey and tough and could buck with the best.
Many ranch kids learned on them and became as tough as those little horses.

Yes and of course the Paso Fino and machedoro come from Spanish lines so I stand corrected.

[eightpondfarm]

@Alterration

and she thinks we’ll get a comfortable saddle rack and flat walk (not a flat footed walk, but more like a slow running walk)

My Missouri Foxtrotter has the absolutest smoothest to ride running walk. It takes effort for him, more than a walk does, more than a trot does. It’s not as they claim a plantation horse can do…(go all day in that gait). But than, i don’t ride him hardly at all. He became sooooo base-narrow as he became an adult horse that i feel too sorry for him to ride. I’m pretty sure that all that selective breeding to get that lovely gait caused that. (You push here, it comes out there)

My Standardbred has a true pace. And an amalgamation of other wonky walks/trots that are all across the board. So far, all my coach and i are working on are walks and trots and that pace. I’m learning to ride it! Started out in two point…and now am sitting it a little bit. Just learning how to sit it i should say. It’s not jarring, but it is strange. And fasssst and fun.

[jvanrens]

@quietann

The name Jubilee King comes up a lot in gaited Morgan pedigrees, but it seems to be a function of the mares he was bred to. He also was an important early sire of what became Quarter Horses, but under a different name, and the QH people deny that Morgans were involved in the founding of the breed… Never mind that a lot of ranch-bred mares back then were sired by Morgan Remount stallions.

There’s lots of history in QH books that mentions Morgans. Heck they acknowledge the Percheron in the Hancock horses, there’s lots of mention of the Remount horses in history I’ve read. I think in many cases the exact names were not kept, even many of the TBs had their names changed when they changed ownership, so I’m not surprised if that happened to Morgans way back in the early times of the breed. I knew one person who traced her husbands QH back to a Saddlebred mare in it’s pedigree. Anyone denying Morgans in the QH would be a fool, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some QH in some of the working type Morgan’s either.

[quietann]

Yes - Jubilee King had his name changed when he went off to sire QHs for Tom Burnett. He did return to the Morgan world after a few years.

I wouldn’t necessarily say QHs contributed to Morgans, in terms of which breed existed first, but both have the western mare bands in their background.

[skydy]

I remember seeing this video showing that Paso Fino horses gait from birth;

[Alterration]

Yes, pasos do But the Marchalador, which is considered a gaited breed, does not - and they do not have the gaited gene…but they still gait.

The Icelandic can gait regardless of the gene. It’s just harder to teach the ones who don’t have it to tölt.

I think there may be more to this gaited thing that meets the eye!