Gangly 3-year old, help with going forward and rooting

[Blugal]

My 3 year old is a purpose bred event horse, currently over 17hh. He is a pretty mellow horse most of the time.

LIghtly backed at 2 then started again this spring. Due to size or growth or something, appears to have some funkiness behind. Experienced sporthorse vet said not to panic, do some handwalking over poles, build up to gradual hills then increase, and see where he is in a year.

He tends to be either totally lazy or way too forward. As summer came on, he started being lazy. I returned to the groundwork and round pen, strengthening voice commands and him moving when asked.

I have had his teeth checked and saddle fitted. He’s been dewormed and shod. I haven’t checked for ulcers. He does have a sensitive digestive system and I’ve worked with the vet on his diet. He wears a French link eggbutt snaffle and a standing martingale.

He gets ridden about 3-4 times per week, usually for 20-40 minutes, mostly walk. I started hacking him off the property with a buddy in the hopes he would become more forward naturally.

He will stop sometimes when he sees something new and won’t go forward from the leg, voice command, or whip. I have never experienced a young horse that just plants itself like this. I have gone with my escalating aids; tried being led; have gotten off and led or done groundwork before getting back on.

Addtionally, he roots the reins so hard that he can jerk me out of the saddle (I feel like a Thelwell rider). When he does this he doesn’t pay attention to his feet at all (he’s already gangly so this is disconcerting). He can be pushy with his head and neck even on the groud - a work in progress to keep him out of your space, to stop him rooting and trying to eat while leading, or nipping. But this is all baby stuff too.

Tied in to the rooting, when we go up steeper hills he sometimes starts mild crow-hopping. This frightens me - and he seems to scare himself too as he loses his footing and doesn’t know where he’s going. Luckily so far he just stops while he tries to process it. I wonder if it’s just a playful/naughty/youngster thing.

My friend and I are both experienced with young horses and have ridden up to 2*… I welcome all comments.

[Highflyer]

I would want to eliminate wobblers/ EPM and Lyme for sure. After that, I think maybe just more time to grow up-- I’m normally in favor of lightly starting them and hacking and playing around with them a bit at 2 and 3 but he sounds so big and so immature it may just be that he needs more time. If he’s getting more and more sour I definitely wouldn’t continue, you don’t want that to be his association with being ridden, especially if he’s sore somewhere or just not strong enough to be comfortable.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yes rule out EPM etc. If fine, I might put a rope halter on him and pony him off another horse. I’d also walk over lots of poles/cavaletti. You need to let him learn to watch his own feet. The rooting isn’t something that I’ve had to deal with as much…I guess I would keep my reins in a single bridge. But I suspect that will get better as you get him further in his training. It’s just a balance baby thing and that’s why ponying him can be good. Let’s him go out and about without dealing with a rider’s weight.

Instilling FWD isn’t uncommon. And I’ve had a couple of the WB crosses that stop and freeze. It always makes me appreciate my OTTBS! But I wouldn’t panic. These big horses just take a bit longer in the beginning sometimes. I would keep doing basic stuff with him but he is only 3.

[Equisis]

Agree with highflyer, I’d check for neurological conditions. I had one behave similarly (not as extreme as yours sounds) and we were dealing with neurologic problems. Horses hate to trip and get off balance, and the fact that you say he scares himself leads me to believe he may not be totally in control of what his body is doing. A proper neurological workup would be my next step, in your shoes.

Beyond that, it sounds like he is either extremely weak and/or in pain, and for that reason, is very opposed to exerting himself. An assertive/pushy personality may contribute to his behavior, but I don’t think it is the driving cause. I might be inclined to try ponying him for a bit- out on the terrain and hills, where he can figure out his balance and get stronger on his own without having to worry about a rider on his back. When he is ridden, I would take him out in a group, focus on riding out and not ring work, and let him ride on a loose contact and just cruise. Remove all other variables except “forward” until he is comfortable with that, then go from there.

[Jealoushe]

I have always been told that extreme rooting is linked to back pain.

At 3, I would give the horse another year to grow. A big horse, with issues already does’t really need to be doing 4 rides a week at 20-40 minutes.

[Blugal]

Thank you all.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

I have always been told that extreme rooting is linked to back pain.

At 3, I would give the horse another year to grow. A big horse, with issues already does’t really need to be doing 4 rides a week at 20-40 minutes.

While agree with backing off the riding…from having some big horses. Doing some ground work…ponying them on some walking hacks and over poles and taking them to some off Farm outings/shows in hand can be really good. You want to keep engaging the brain as appropriate for the horse and age while not physically stressing them…but instilling some manners etc before they get too strong and opinionated. But I’ve also just given them more time out in the field. Played with them for a few weeks…then kicked them back out. But these guys take a REALLY LONG time to get strong and walking up and down hills is best for them (either in turn out or being ponied).

[Jealoushe]

I can agree with that! That all sounds like easy light work, good for the brain

[Posting_Trot]

Three is still a baby, and especially when he’s that big it’s no surprise that he’s gangly and a bit all over the place.

He also probably doesn’t have a ton of “life experiences” for lack of a better phrase, so his just stopping when he feels overfaced (even if you are of the opinion that he should not feel overfaced) is not really that surprising either.

And frankly, for now, I’d lose the whip. You don’t want to have a use the whip to get him to do very simple things, and if your whip is the only way to do it, then you really have to question how you’re asking him, or what kinds of situations you’re putting him into.

I’m not trying to be super-critical here, and I’m not against carrying a whip and using it when needed, but I do think that with a 3 year old, you want riding to be a more positive experience for him rather than a test of wills.

[IFG]

@bornfreenowexpensive

While agree with backing off the riding…from having some big horses. Doing some ground work…ponying them on some walking hacks and over poles and taking them to some off Farm outings/shows in hand can be really good. You want to keep engaging the brain as appropriate for the horse and age while not physically stressing them…but instilling some manners etc before they get too strong and opinionated. But I’ve also just given them more time out in the field. Played with them for a few weeks…then kicked them back out. But these guys take a REALLY LONG time to get strong and walking up and down hills is best for them (either in turn out or being ponied).

Totally agree. You don’t want to come back to an even bigger, more recalcitrant, horse at 4. Keep him doing stuff, even if not riding.

[Foxtrot_s]

A lot of horses have that ‘get stuck’ phase - I think it is on page 2 of their training manual.
But that aside, is he on a shivers diet - high in vitamin E and oils, etc.?

[Blugal]

@Posting Trot

I’m not trying to be super-critical here, and I’m not against carrying a whip and using it when needed, but I do think that with a 3 year old, you want riding to be a more positive experience for him rather than a test of wills.

I totally agree. I carry the whip mostly to correct him lunging at the other horse (play biting). After a few times of realizing he wouldn’t go forwards, I decided not to get into any battle of wills with him as he is green, not mean. So if he stops I wait for the other horse to pass me and give a lead, then “ask” him to move forward as he naturally wants to. This means he answers correctly rather than me teaching him to ignore my requests.

He tends to respond best to praise. I’ve really taken to heart the idea that a reward for a horse like this is usually to stand still and NOT work. So if he goes forward when asked, I praise him, and I only do short stints then ask him to stop rather than letting him stop on his own - and allow him to rest and process.

@bornfreenowexpensive

You want to keep engaging the brain as appropriate for the horse and age while not physically stressing them…but instilling some manners etc before they get too strong and opinionated.

This is exactly what I’m aiming for. I am only 5’2 so the more he gets on the program now, the easier it will be for me, and barn staff, etc. He is a essentially a good-minded boy that I’m trying to polish through his awkwardness

[drafting_dots]

@Posting Trot

Three is still a baby, and especially when he’s that big it’s no surprise that he’s gangly and a bit all over the place.

He also probably doesn’t have a ton of “life experiences” for lack of a better phrase, so his just stopping when he feels overfaced (even if you are of the opinion that he should not feel overfaced) is not really that surprising either…

I totally agree with all of the above. Also, believe it or not, some of us wimpy riders like horses who stop and think when they’re worried, instead of spooking or bolting. My guy will always slow when he’s concerned, I only know he’s “spooking” when he loses his forward. As he’s matured, it takes less and less to keep him attentive and he trusts me more when I ask him to move forward past whatever he’s looking at.

[Blugal]

@Foxtrot's

A lot of horses have that ‘get stuck’ phase - I think it is on page 2 of their training manual.
But that aside, is he on a shivers diet - high in vitamin E and oils, etc.?

Yes.

[findeight]

What’s his turnout situation? Often the bigger ones kept more confined don’t learn to use their body parts if they aren’t out on uneven terrain long enough or often enough to work it out. They can go through clumsy phases and he might be stopping because he doesn’t know better and you let him ( no offense).

Concerned the vet pulled wobblers out of their hat. What is s/he basing that on? Think that needs to be ruled out before wasting time time and money to see if it gets better, if he’s got that, it won’t. Likewise EPM is not going away by itself and the earlier it’s treated the less damage will be done. Letting these go untreated will end up costing more down the road by exposing the horse to potential serious injury. Would want to definitely rule these out ASAP if vet thinks it’s a possibility. Waiting in this case doesnt make sense IMO.had vet just said it’s a klutzy phase, wouldn’t worry but they didn’t.

[Blugal]

@findeight

had vet just said it’s a klutzy phase, wouldn’t worry

Actually that is exactly what the vet said; and she has had experience with shivers/stringhalt performance horses and told me about that. I am going to investigate the suggestions on this thread.

[JER]

Can you have a chiropractor look at him? I do this with all my horses as they’re growing, even if they’re not showing signs of discomfort.

My feeling based on what you say is that he’s too immature mentally and/or physically at the moment to be in riding work. And sometimes a growing horse – like a human – can be a bit foggy mentally and is better off not being pushed until they’re through that growth cycle.

[theresak]

Who is he turned out with - what type of herd and herd leader? My suggestion is a herd (<10) with a dominant mare that is a good leader but doesn’t tolerate any nonsense.

I think the very best thing we did for my giant horse when he was 2-4 years old was turn him out with a group of broodmares. They did not let him get away with anything, and when the dominant mare told him to move, he had better move out of the way.

He’s not the most responsive horse in general and can be slow to react when you ask him to move his body on the ground (i.e., backing up), but he’s never snarky or acts dominant when you make him move his feet - I think the broodmares knocked that sass out of him when he was 3.

He was very klutzy and can still be a bit clumsy when the footing is dry and his feet are long - I think that’s a “large horse” trait. If your horse is cleared by the vet, lead and ride him through of changes of footing, gradients, and poles to help his proprioception.

[Blugal]

@JER

Can you have a chiropractor look at him? I do this with all my horses as they’re growing, even if they’re not showing signs of discomfort.

Yes, I have access to one and was considering it.

Re: turnout. He has been turned out with my other gelding who does put him in his place. The 3 year old is just super playful and bite-y no matter who he’s around. I don’t think I want him with the mares who all kick! When not turned out he is in a smaller all-weather paddock.

[Foxtrot_s]

Does he shiver and shake in the hind end when getting down to roll?