Garden State CDE - New 2-day format - your opinions?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Quote from ADS News Bits:

In light of the financial difficulties being faced across the country, and in an effort to reduce expenses for exhibitors, the organizer has decided to compress the competition into a two-day format. The dressage phase of the competition will be held on Saturday, May 30th, beginning at approximately 10:00am, and the marathon and cones phases will be on Sunday, May 31st beginning at 8:00am. Drivers will have the option of having their horses inspected on Friday afternoon or early Saturday morning.

I’m wondering what the reasoning behind having dressage stand alone? Time constraints? The Gayla CDE is a two-day format with dressage followed directly by cones on Saturday, and marathon on Sunday. Granted, I haven’t been to very many CDE’s but that schedule seemed to flow pretty well. And I have to wonder if cones + marathon on the same day might be pretty taxing for the horses?

Your thoughts?

[Ashemont]

Same thing I was wondering. The only point I could see in having cones within marathon would be that you would then be able to use your marathon carriage for cones.

[KellyS]

I agree…since you’re supposed to use the same carriage for A & C (dressage & cones), it is so much easier to do dressage/cones on the same day. All I can think is that they are limited by the horse park set up (they usually have 2 rings for cones), but I would think they’d have enough flexibility with all the rings to make it work.

You see this a lot with eventing, but having cross country jumping/show jumping back to back is easy because much of your equipment is the same (compared to dressage). I’ve never seen a 2-day driving trial/CDE run this way. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

[goodhors]

Cones last was always to determine if equine was sound after Marathon. Perhaps Club is trying to retain the Traditional order of CDE, Dressage, Marathon, Cones, though everything is in the 2 day frame.

You still have to dress to show Cones in your Dressage vehicle. Unless you only have one carriage, and that would still need to be cleaned up, before Cones. You don’t drive Cones in Marathon attire.

I am not seeing why they would choose to do everything on Sunday. Marathon and Cones, along with awards, prevents exhibitors from getting away until fairly late in the day. Most 2-day formats purposely want to get done early on Sunday to allow early departure for travel time. Here in the Midwest, that can be MANY hours. In the NE, it may be much shorter driving times to get home. Smaller states.

Maybe NJ2 and DriveNJ will have something to add.

[KellyS]

Does anyone know whether they are running it cones/marathon or marathon/cones? Gah, can you imagine doing marathon and then cleaning everything up to do cones the same day (if you are using same harness/equipment)? Not to mention that it’s not terribly fair to the horses/ponies.

The other way around would work, I guess, but as goodhors says, it makes for a very long day and so many competitors come long distances from New England, Virginia, etc.

Soundness could be checked at the final vet check after the finish of E if that is a concern.

Yes, anxious to hear from DriveNJ/NJ2!

[horseyfolks]

You do not have to dress for cones… from the announcements… "The Advanced division will do their Cones course after the marathon, approximately 1 hour after they finish Section E, to allow them time to switch vehicles. They will not be required to dress."

The reason cones is after marathon (the way I understand it) is that FEI requires cones as the last leg of the CDE. The ADTs and HDTs that have adopted the 2 day format are not FEI shows. The same reason (FEI rules) is why Advanced has to change vehicles… The rules say Dressage and cones are done in the same vehicle.

They have also changed the dressage test for advanced singles from the norm. As I understand it, instead of test 9 single ponies and horses are doing test 7A. This test can be done in a smaller arena.

The point I see as the strangest is in section E (marathon) for training, prelim, and intermediate the first hazard they encounter will be their cones course… " On Sunday, the Intermediate/Preliminary/Training levels will do Sections A and D of the Marathon, then enter the rest halt (which will also serve as their in-harness inspection). They will Start E, which includes the obstacles, and the first obstacle will be the Cones course. There will be no whistle or salute. As competitors enter the flags, their time will start and the course will be judged as usual for Cones; their time will end when they exit the flags. For purposes of the time allowed, the distance of the Cones course will be added to the overall distance on Section E."… I guess that means their cones will receive 2 scores… the cones score and their first hazard score.

I don’t see a problem doing the cones after marathon as long as the animals are in CDE condition. It will make conditioning of your pony of huge importance, especially for advanced trying to make the cones time.

Anyway you look at it it promises to be an interesting show. There will probably be some that decide not to attend over the changes. It is a selection trial for us so we will be there!

Don

[Drive_NJ]

Im guessing that since it is a selection trial, the marathon then cones format is to preserve the traditional sequence of competitions.

I do find the cones as part of the marathon “interesting” I wonder where that idea originated and it will be interesting to see how well it works

I know some people have likes the new cones format of doing "most of the cones and then only continuing on the last 5 or so IF you have a clean score “so far” but for many its just plain confusing

Funny story
Many years ago we had a fun day pleasure and cross country show weekend. Cones was in a “distant” field and was to run on Sunday, the XC marathon with “hazards” ran on Saturday
We had one club member who was usually very confused and always running late.
Because of this we had extra personel out to spot him to make sure where he was and to make sure he had passed “x” spot before sending out the next competitor. He came over a hill ready for the first hazard ( a twist of trees) and saw the cones course - Naturally he had not read ANY directions nor had he walked either course. So the next thing hear was him yelling to his navigator "Look for number ONE ! ! "

[ZELLA]

I’ve participated in this event for the last 2 years as either a navigator or driver, and my only major gripe was that I had to take an extra day off of work and have the extra expenses of a 3-day event. So from that perspective, I’m thrilled that my wish for it to become a 2-day event has been fulfilled–although I hope it won’t make things too difficult for the folks involved with the selection trials.

I get why the advanced division has to have cones after marathon, but why oh why can’t they run dressage and cones back-to-back on Saturday for the lower divisions? The arena space certainly is there. I really prefer to use my dressage cart for cones, and this set-up is going to force the lower levels to use their marathon vehicles for dressage, unless they make a special exception to the rules in this regard. Some people use the marathon vehicle anyway, but…ugh. I know I don’t have a fancy hat that matches my electric-blue Puddle Jumper!

[horseyfolks]

It’s just an observation but to me it looks like the organizers want the ease, less time invested, lower cost, and relative simplicity of an HDT or even an ADT but still want the prestige of an upper level FEI CDE. I’m sure a major consideration is cost and by going to a 2 day show they are saving a LOT of money (at least 1/3 less just for judges as well as less days to rent the faciity) however, it does not seem to lower cost to the competitor.

I think only time will tell… There are other shows that could be selectors (for instance Southern Pines… I heard they just built 4 more barns). I’m sure there are enough drivers in NJ to support a regular HDT or 2 every year.

There will surely be more educated opinions than mine about the change… I will be there, taking part and trying to enjoy the show either way. I guess we won’t know the final answer 'til next spring’s Omnibus comes out!

Zella, they make helmets and covers to match any color carriage!

Don

[ZELLA]

Don,

Snazzy helmet cover for marathon I’ve got. Hat, apron & clothes to match the marathon vehicle for dressage use, not.

[Drive_NJ]

I don’t know the back story on why the change, but I would assume at least a part of this is to shorten the competition for savings on the part of BOTH the show and competitor. For show, they pay a few days less in judge’s fees and grounds fees, but the rest of the costs remain the same. For the competitor instead of having to get to the show by Wed for a Thurs/Fri dressage schedule, you can not arrive on Friday which should save on those hotel/meals/barn sitter expenses. Possibly reacting to feedback they have received for this years economic conditions. I don’t know.

I believe the marathon will be full length, not HDT length so you won’t be missing out on anything. At the advanced level it is all the same except cones will follow marathon. They are not asking Advanced to dress for cones, but they will need to switch back to their dressage/cones vehicle if they have one, or clean up the marathon vehicle if they don’t.

For lower levels, it sounds to me like your cones course is in place of Hazard/Obstacle 1 on the marathon - weird, but since Heather is on the high performance team, possibly something they are looking to try - like the cones/drive-off combo they introduced last year (or could be the year before). What seems odd to me is cones won’t be after the marathon, but in the middle (bet the scorers will love that) AND it begs the question what about navigator assistance during cones? Will they have to sit and make no comment per rules? or will they be allowed to stand and balance the carriage around turns. If 2nd, it is a major change to the purpose of cones in the competition - which might be why this is being introduced. “to make things more interesting” there are those that have been pushing cones into being a giant hazard rather than about a different sort of technical driving. With this format, they will have succeeded

It will be interesting.

Zella - Horseyfolks is referring to the hat covers Sam has been getting from Sheri Lower for use during dressage not marathon. Not my style (I’d be more inclined to a velvet hunt-cap style or the matt darker colored ones, but others are loving these covers to dress up their helmets.

[KellyS]

I think my only concern with the format change (having cones during marathon) is if they are doing it to make it more “interesting” that can be a slippery slope. Eventing has gone down the same road…make the courses more interesting for spectators at the cost of being fair to the horses. And you all know how that’s turning out. :no:

With a 2-day format, I’d really like to see the cones run after dressage for levels below Advanced if at all possible. I mean the FEI/ADS rules mandate using the same carriage for A and C and that the “groom” cannot assist in cones. Seems this format is kind of changing what that part of the competition is all about. And it can’t be incorporated at the Advanced/FEI levels due to the minimum track width requirements (well, and the rules about running cones after marathon).

And frankly, for someone getting into the sport at the Training/Prelim level it’s quite a bit of mental preparation to not only learn the cones course, but incoporate it into the marathon, which is already stressful enough for someone getting their feet wet.

Plus, for us, how we prepare in the warm-up for cones is quite different than for marathon. If the purpose of the lower levels is to prepare for the upper levels (ultimately FEI) then I feel it’s very important to learn from the get go how to prepare your horse/pony for each phase. I’m coming at it from strictly eventing experience, but both the physical and mental warm-up between cross country/show jumping is vastly different. But then again, driving marathon/cones is not quite the same as handling an upper level show jumping or cross country course, so perhaps this format will work for Garden State (and future competitions if it is embraced by competitors).

Just my thoughts, FWIW.

[R_Holyoak]

Just a little question .

How can the first obstacle be cones with 15+ gates?
I thought training and prelim could only have 3 or 4 gates.

Thanks

[Drive_NJ]

Again, don’t know, but my guess is the cones course will ‘replace’ the hazard, not BE the hazard, so other than the distance of the course being incorporated into the marathon distance for purposes of timing the marathon, I’d guess it will be judged and scored separately as a cones course - # gates won’t matter. Of course it also takes those people out of any more formal awards, but since many don’t hang out long enough to get their awards personally on a 2 day I guess it won’t bother people too much.

I tend to agree with Kelly here. If the powers that be aren’t thinking of the lower levels as preparatory to the Advanced or FEI level, they should be. Training through Intermediate should be teaching you how to play the game. Been fighting that battle for many years with only limited success.

Talking with a local trainer with several students aiming for GS, the following concerns were brought up.

1. Most marathon vehicles set up for marathon don’t have a seat for the navigator. Will they be allowed to stand? If so, will they be allowed to assist (balance carriage,etc)? If not, they we’ll have loads of “they assisted”, “No, they were just trying to keep their own balance” calls

2. Some folks use different bits for marathon than they do for cones. Horses may or may not react well to this

3. Prep for cones may be different than for marathon, no time/place for practice cones etc.

4. While not optimal, some horses get jazzed differently after cones. This too could affect your marathon.

Now many of these things are no brainers and no problem for a more experienced driver, this change will affect the less experienced drivers (except for intermediate)

As said before… it will be ‘interesting’

[R_Holyoak]

Personally I think it is terrible.

How can one prepare for the Marathon and all its gates and the cones course this could be up to 50 gates to remember. Just what a training or prelim driver needs. Even the advanced drivers will have to walk the cones course before going out on the marathon.

[pricestory]

I’m not going and have never been to Garden State so I guess I shouldn’t comment but I agree to cutting out some days to save money. It is more expensive to have to be there to compete on Friday as well as the weekend. However, I’d rather compete in a 3 day than a 2 day. As my brain gets older, having only one thing to do each day helps me get it all memorized. I really can’t go on Friday for a weekend show and feel ready anyway for the cones and hazards. This format cuts both days and adds to the memory issues.
But if they were going to change it to a 2 day format, why not use the existing 2 day format?
This all reminds me of changing the wheel size for everyone. Once again, ADS seems interested in the organizers and large events, not the backbone of the organization, those of us in Training and Prelim who pay the bills at the competitions.

[omijn]

change again

I just recieved information that Gardner state is now going to have dressage and cones on saturday and marathon on Sunday.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I would think it is safe to say that the format change is the result of driver input. Hope it all works out and they have spectacular weather and safe go’s for everyone!