Gas Colic and diet

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

So as we continue moving on with Dexter at a rate of one step forward and two steps back, I again need to hear comments and suggestions.

On Wed evening we had Dexter out on lead to work with his newly acquired “don’t mess with my feet” issue and he decided to display his new “don’t ask me to do anything that doesn’t involve eating grass or I’ll paw you in the face” issue. Omg he’s turning into a monster and the behavior HAS to be corrected. Suffice it to say by the time we were done there was some attitude improvement we didn’t want to stress him too much, ended things on a good note with him appearing relaxed and willing.

Within 60 seconds of being back in the stall he was displaying colic signs. We got him out of the stall as soon as we safely could (he hit the floor immediately and was rolling violently). Once in his play pen he ran and bucked and passed gas. The episode lasted about 30 minutes and before the vet made to the house he was calm and wanting grass. Bowel sounds and vital signs were normal and he has passed normal looking stool.

Vet said to stop giving him alfalfa and give him only grass hay. And suggested moving him to a less nutritional fescue to increase roughage. 75-80% of Dexter’s available forage is Timothy and orchard. The issue is he doesn’t EAT it in sufficient quantities. If I give him free access to it he just plays with it and scatters it and eats a mouthful or two. He eats at it some in his hay bags IF, I put some alfalfa in the middle of mix he’ll eats his way through to it. He will not eat soaked hay of any variety. And forget about fescue.

What I have done: decreased alfalfa to a snack, started equisure and added psyllium once daily. Cut way back on feed to a quart four times a day. That amount will not keep weight on Dex so it will have to be increased. Slowly. Any suggestions as to how slowly? We are in the middle of a gastrogard taper and he was on day 14 of 1/2 tube when this happened. He still seems off to me but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

IDK if it’s a roughage thing or an excessive fermentation in the hind gut thing. His cow patty foul smelling poo stopped a couple weeks ago after I stopped his U7 and was normal appearing until the bout of colic. Now they are a little dry for my liking. And last night he went six hours without pooping. Then pooped four times in 3 hours. Please review the changes I’ve made since the colic and offer suggestions.

I can get a feed that was developed by UGA in the 90’s called Goddrey’s Miracle Horse. It was developed for severe drought conditions and supplies all necessary roughage requirements when fed as directed. (Forage is not necessary but recommended). I have used it with horses when hay was limited with good results.

There is no more money in the budget for another surgery. If he obstructs, this journey is over.

[IPEsq]

Hmm. I think grasses make my horse gassier than alfalfa. It sounds like maybe he needs more water. Will he eat his grain in a mash? I can’t remember if you have had him on beet pulp. It can make some horses too gassy, but it is a decent way to get wet fiber and calories in them otherwise if he tolerates it. With his history, I would worry more about the nsc of the hay than the fiber. And, getting him to eat his forage is also important. It sounds like he is overall starting to normalize, but his gut is still a bit stressed. My initial thought was to give him something even easier to pass like pellets, not more fiber.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@IPEsq

Hmm. I think grasses make my horse gassier than alfalfa. It sounds like maybe he needs more water. Will he eat his grain in a mash? I can’t remember if you have had him on beet pulp. It can make some horses too gassy, but it is a decent way to get wet fiber and calories in them otherwise if he tolerates it. With his history, I would worry more about the nsc of the hay than the fiber. And, getting him to eat his forage is also important. It sounds like he is overall starting to normalize, but his gut is still a bit stressed. My initial thought was to give him something even easier to pass like pellets, not more fiber.

Thank you for responding. I did forget to mention that his feed is fed as a mash. It has been for months because of his enteritis bouts. He is not on beat pulp.

Water is sometimes an issue with Dex. Most of the time he drinks about 12 gallons a day which should be sufficient. Just prior to this I noticed he wasn’t as interested in his hay and had decreased his water intake. TBH, I was looking for colic as that is the pattern, he slows down on everything about two days ahead of time. That is a chicken egg thing. Does that CAUSE the colic or is he doing it because his gut is off?? Because of that I was adding a little molasses to his water (only thing that works) and increased his grazing by about 15 min twice a day.

it has been unseasonably cool, especially at night. (When do you get 65 degree weather in August in the south???) So I had hoped that accounted for his lower water intake.

[TakingItAllInStride]

Poor guy! Thinking water here too. How much water is he drinking? Any drop in consumption?

My guy went through a lot of mild colic episodes due to lack of water… dry manure, looong hours between passing anything, and gassy, not to mention super unhappy and picky about eating. He was mostly refusing to drink at that time too.

For him it was small very wet mashes of timothy/alfalfa pellets given frequently. Every half hour or so. Always had him feeling better in a few hours. He never has been a good drinker so now twice daily he gets a couple handfuls of alfalfa or timothy pellets in 1 1/2 gallons in water just to be sure he gets enough.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

Dex will eat feed as a mash but will not TOUCH wet hay or wet cubes or wet hay pellets. Molasses Not apple juice, not apple cider vinegar not electrolytes etc. Black Strap Molasses. I put just enough to make the water smell like it and put a finger full on the lip of the bucket. He tastes it then the smell of the water hits him and he drinks.

[TakingItAllInStride]

@Second Star To The Right

Thank you for responding. I did forget to mention that his feed is fed as a mash. It has been for months because of his enteritis bouts. He is not on beat pulp.

Water is sometimes an issue with Dex. Most of the time he drinks about 12 gallons a day which should be sufficient. Just prior to this I noticed he wasn’t as interested in his hay and had decreased his water intake. TBH, I was looking for colic as that is the pattern, he slows down on everything about two days ahead of time. That is a chicken egg thing. Does that CAUSE the colic or is he doing it because his gut is off?? Because of that I was adding a little molasses to his water (only thing that works) and increased his grazing by about 15 min twice a day.

it has been unseasonably cool, especially at night. (When do you get 65 degree weather in August in the south???) So I had hoped that accounted for his lower water intake.

Ah, okay! You posted as I was typing!

I would still try increasing water. Better to have a little too much water than too little. Cool weather was esspecially bad for my guy.

How’s his salt intake?

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

He has a licket salt and a redrock (that goes in his alfalfa bucket during the empty times which is most of the day). He is fond of both of them.

[atr]

I had gas colic problems with one horse with soy. Eliminated it completely from his diet, and (crosses fingers) no more bloated, uncomfortable, gassy, colicky horse.

might be worth a thought.

[JB]

suggested moving him to a less nutritional fescue to increase roughage. 75-80% of Dexter’s available forage is Timothy and orchard.

This doesn’t make sense. Without knowing the tested digestibility (ADF, NDF) of each hay, how does the vet know what is more, or less digestible? 10lb of hay is 10lb of roughage. Lower quality hay has more indigestible fiber, aka lignin, which are measures of ADF and NDF. And it’s less palatable in general, so if a horse is already not eating enough of what is typically pretty tasty T and OG, I highly doubt he’s going to eat MORE fescue hay which is generally less palatable., which then equates to less roughage.

Increasing his hard feed can be as slow as 1/4lb to 1 of those 4 feedings, then in 2-3 days adding 1/4lb to another of those, and so on, for 4 increases, and then start adding again.Without knowing what your end goal weight is, that might take a really long time. You could add 1/2lb at a time, or 1/4lb to 2 of the 4 feedings (so 1 and 3, or 2 and 4). If you can afford maybe 2 weeks of this lower feed rate, you can start as slowly as possible so you don’t give his system any logical reason to get upset. Then if he’s doing well, speed up how much or quickly you increase the amounts.

There is a whole category of feeds called “complete feeds” which provide all the fiber/roughage a horse needs when fed as the sole ration, which is a lot, still accounting for 1.5-2%of their body weight. So the UGA feed isn’t any different in that regard. I don’t know anything else about it to know how it compares otherwise.

I don’t remember what feed he’s on now, but if it’s higher than, say, 15% NSC, I’d move to something lower - Triple Crown Sr if you can get it.

As mentioned above, some horses really are sensitive enough to alfalfa or soy (or oats or cereal grains in general) that those things need to be removed. Maybe that’s the reason the vet suggested removing the alf, as it’s an easily digestible hay that is usually GOOD for GI issues. But soy is a trigger for some horses.

I’d consider adding 1-2tsp lite salt to his feed per day, so divided up among the 4 servings if you need to, or whatever works. I would also consider giving him a loose salt product, either plain salt, or a trace mineral product, unflavored in any way. All else equal, horses tend to consume more loose salt than block salt. That should also encourage him to drink more.

You can also try a different colored water bucket to see if he likes that better. One of mine increased his intake appreciably when I started using yellow buckets - maybe because he could see the bottom? I have another one now who hardly drank anything out of blue, but a lot more out of red. Go figure.

[RedHorses]

Mine has gas colicked twice this year. The first time was a rather worrisome emergency vet visit, and the second happened in front of me between unsaddling and putting his soaked alfalfa cubes in the stall (while he was still on crossties). It took him about a week to get back to himself after the vet one, and it didn’t happen until after I started giving him probiotic again. I give him Biotic 8 and had heard /read that it wasn’t the best thing to give horses probiotic all the time so I had been giving it to him spring through fall and not in the winter. The vet call was in the winter.

Mine drinks very well, yet he was dehydrated for the vet call colic. I suspect he’d been suffering gas bubbles for a long time before I got to the barn, and had just been hunched up in his shelter not eating and not drinking. He was not dehydrated for the second incident.

Mine gets gassy if his hind gut gets irritated. Two of his triggers are flax and soy. Both are banned substances for him. There was a time that 30 minutes on grass would make him very mildly gas colicky (as in no treatment required, but he’d stop grazing and be unhappy).

I asked the vet about the probiotic thing during a later vet visit for routine things. She said if he did better with the probiotic then go ahead and give it to him. I give it to him daily now. One scoop a day, except in spring when he starts to get grass and I give him two scoops. I use Biotic 8.

The second between untacking and cube dumping colic was handled with a bottle of anti gas. I wasn’t sure what was going on, he just went from entirely outward focused to completely inward focused in about 10s. He seemed colicky and obviously movement wasn’t going to help since we had just finished a ride. So I gave him the anti gas and 30 minutes to show signs of improvement before I called the vet (he did and I didn’t). That was when I went back to daily Biotic 8.

I hope you figure out what will help your guy.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@JB the very reason he’s getting alfalfa is because we have suspected hind gut issues for quite some time. I’m not sure if you guys have noticed in other posts but cool season grasses are all that is available from local growers in my area so any Timothy or alfalfa or Bermuda is trucked in from the southern part of the state or out west. It’s usually great quality and horribly expensive. Or compressed bales. (Alfala runs about $25 a square bale).

They don’t EVER buy from the same place twice which may simply be an availability issue. The last Timothy/Alfalafa bales have a much lower alfalfa content and he’s not eating it nearly as well. Alfalfa is so scarce here (and only available seasonally and I’m sure that my vet has seen a number of horses with GI upset on alfalfa because it’s a diet change and people don’t do it slowly. That’s not how Dexter was introduced to alfalfa and I really don’t think he got gassy from it after three months. And I am in agreement with you that removing the only hay he really eats is counterproductive. The more hay he eats, the more water he drinks also.

Soy…Nutrena uses it and I am not a fan. My plan has been all along to change him to TC senior which I can get here but I’ve tried to wait wait until he had gone a couple months without colic…it’s still the plan.

I know that Godfrey uses soy. Does anyone know of a forage replacement feed that doesn’t?

I have no idea how fast I can add feed without causing GI issues. The last time I added 1/4 pound every few days until I had him at 6 pounds then added a half a week.

I just happened to think about it, I added farriers formula to the mix a couple days before the colic. Could that make him gassy?

[bt1]

I will second the color of the bucket advice…for some reason my mare ALWAYS picks a favorite bucket and thinking back it may always be the lighter colored one.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

To help with gas, give one level tablespoon of baking soda (out of your kitchen) dry in the grain each day. Helps to prevent gas.

[OneTwoMany]

This is completely offbeat, but there are some interesting articles about how commonly used herbicides might be responsible, or at least contribute to certain food allergies in people. If you don’t have anything else to try it might be worth seeing if an organic diet makes a difference, or at least avoiding crops that are commonly treated/raised using herbicides.

I’m not a scientist or a health nut. But it might be worth a whirl.

[Bluey]

We have a horse that acts like gas colic if we use that yellow Pyranha fly spray.
First time we took him to the vet, that treated him for colic, but was not sure that was all.
Second time, we waited it out and he was ok after a bit, all on his own.
Third time we made the connection with that fly spray, didn’t try again, but seems that is what was doing it.
Never did that before, has not since we quit using that.

You may look for zebras also, not just horse hoofbeats.

[2tempe]

Have a mare who has had two surgeries for displacement of the large colon. Both times also resulted in bloating and gas. Surgeon told me that she should NOT have alfafa. Also said to be sure she is kept on low NSC food. And a probiotic. Its been 4 years since 2nd surgery, we’ve had a couple of mild gas events, otherwise all is well. Oh, they also told me to switch hay gradually every time our barn gets a new batch. Hard to do consistently at a boarding facility but mostly working.

[JB]

@Second Star To The Right

@JB the very reason he’s getting alfalfa is because we have suspected hind gut issues for quite some time.

Right, so what reason did the vet have for wanting to remove it?

They don’t EVER buy from the same place twice which may simply be an availability issue.

Very common, and just goes to the point about how does the vet know that the fescue you can get is any higher/better forage than the T and OG you’re currently using? And what does it mean when she says fescue is lower in nutrition therefore higher in forage? It’s not making sense (but then again, most vets really don’t know much about hay or grasses in general)

. And I am in agreement with you that removing the only hay he really eats is counterproductive. The more hay he eats, the more water he drinks also.

Sometimes we have to nod and smile at the vet and then do what we feel is best for that particular issue

Soy…Nutrena uses it and I am not a fan.

99% of commercial companies use soy - meal and/or hulls - as a protein source. It’s the cheapest way to increase protein. It’s incredibly hard and $$ to find soy-free feeds

My plan has been all along to change him to TC senior which I can get here but I’ve tried to wait wait until he had gone a couple months without colic…it’s still the plan.

TBH, I think I’d change now. I’m just not a fan of Nutrena products in general. TC is a better brand in general, and TC Sr specifically beats most of Nutrena’s products hands down.

I know that Godfrey uses soy. Does anyone know of a forage replacement feed that doesn’t?

There’s a difference between a complete feed, which is what the Miracle Horse is, which is what TC Sr and Growth are, which is what most Sr and Jr/growth feeds are, and some other specific products in given brands, and a forage replacement.

Complete feeds are short-stem fiber, meaning fiber lengths less than 1"

Forage replacements, such as TC’s Timothy Balance Cubes, or TC’s Safe Starch Forage, are long-stem fiber with additional fortification, though usually not to the degree of normal feeds or complete feeds. They would not be suitable as the SOLE ration, because of their low level of fortification. Those forage replacers usually don’t have soy in them, and as such, aren’t usually high in protein, unless the forage is all/mostly alfalfa. For example, the Timothy Balance Cubes are only 8% protein.

But the complete feeds do have added soy.

I have no idea how fast I can add feed without causing GI issues. The last time I added 1/4 pound every few days until I had him at 6 pounds then added a half a week.

That’s all you can do is just pick a low starting point and go from there.

I just happened to think about it, I added farriers formula to the mix a couple days before the colic. Could that make him gassy?

Anything is possible, but I’d be truly shocked if that was related.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@JB. Thank you for the detailed response. Oops hit the wrong button and posted too fast. As always you are teaching me good things. And I appreciate your taking time to be so detailed.

@2tempe, it’s very common after surgeries for vets to say do away with alfalfa. Dexter has never had colonic displacement with any of his colics on ultrasound. Dexter has duodenal and likely hind gut ulcers. He was on high dose anti inflammatories for several months and was on full dose gastrogard for several months. That coupled with long term aggressive antibiotics that killed every good bacteria in his gut is likely the cause of his digestive issues. BUT, I would guess that this was the line of thinking that lead my vet to say stay away from alfalfa.

Heres the deal, if Dex eats a lot of hay, he drinks sufficient water. Vet had recommended me not being so liberal with the alfalfa I gave him after I mentioned that he had begun selectively grazing it from his forage mix. About that time, labs showed that dex had a very low total protein. He may be all about the alfalfa due to the protein content. I think his albumin and total protein were low due to food volume restrictions with multiple bouts of colic and his liver problems. I suspect that though he may like the taste better, he will resume eating a better variety when his levels normalize.

I usually check my hay very thoroughly. As I stuff a bag or even the hay manger, I pull my flakes apart. The DH opened a new bale of Tim/Al on Monday and for the past few days had been kindly going out and stuffing my bag. I’ve been putting orchard in the manger. He brought up a flake of the Timothy mix to put in the manger to see if he would eat more and waste less. As I pulled it apart I found Dallis grass seed heads. Tons of them buried in the flake. Brown, ergot infested Dallis grass in my $20 bale of Timothy!!!

Colic and aggression are signs of moderate ergot poisoning. Dex is always the sweetest horse. He’s been dangerous the past three days. So whether it’s a good thing or not, he’s getting an alfalfa and orchard mix until I can travel the two hours for new hay.

[keysfins]

Dexter is lucky to have you, poor guy!

I agree with JB, consider switching to the TC Senior as a complete feed. We usually like to only make one change at a time, to see if anything can be associated with that change. But sometimes we just have to make changes because whatever we’re doing isn’t working for that particular horse. We have several horses on Triumph Senior and Triple Crown Senior, and they do very well. (My own Senior was on mostly Triumph Senior with very little hay due to repeated colics.)

Probiotics are very much worth a try, since it seems like he doesn’t have an optimal gut biome right now.

Does he drink from buckets, a trough, auto-waters, or some combo of those? Are you able to monitor how much water he is really drinking? Several of the horses in our barn also love to drink the water that hay has been soaked in, for the horses that need soaked hay. Will Dexter eat damp (not soaked) hay at all?

What is he on for ulcer treatment? Is it GastroGard or UlcerGard? And Equisure for hind gut? Any Sucralfate? When does he get psyllium, is it with something else?

ETA: please consider wearing a helmet when handling Dexter. He may not intentionally hurt you, but if he is waving his legs around…better safe than sorry.

[csaper58]

@Second Star To The Right

it has been unseasonably cool, especially at night. (When do you get 65 degree weather in August in the south???) So I had hoped that accounted for his lower water intake.

Change of weather colic is common here.

One cause is the rise in the sugar content of the grass. www.safergrass.org has lots of info on best time to graze.

Will your vet let you give Gas-X?

Here is a great thread on using Fennel Seed for gassy colic.
www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/343804-my-gas-colic-experiment

I had a horse who would get gassy from, or not drink, the water in the trough if it was cloudy or green. The other horses in the pasture were fine.

Have you checked Dexter’s poo for sand?

Tapeworms/Strongyles are a major cause of late summer early fall colic here and tapes don’t show up in fecal counts.

Jingles!