Obdb, the clone is in Europe. Videos of horses presented are from Europe. I think most (all?) of his foals are in Europe.
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A bit off topic, but the off topic thread references the Russian lady who rode a TB very successfully.
Has anyone heard of the mare or her pedigree?
Nina, who outlived the 70 years of the Soviet Union, was famous for competing the same horseāthe Thoroughbred Dida (Blasius x Dideldumdei)āin dressage, show jumping, eventing and steeplechase. The pair were national champions in both eventing and jumping.
Her biggest success was in dressage with the duo climbing to Olympic level.
I doubt she was ābred for Sportā. Nonetheless, went to the top of her era.
http://www.dressage-news.com/2017/03/08/nina-gromova-star-of-soviet-equestrian-sport-back-in-saddle-at-95-years-of-age/
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Different stokes, I guess. Iād take that gray!!!
But the thread is about this TB, not just TBs in general
First even purposed bred TBs are what ā¦ purpose bred in 2 / 3 generations ? Is in the mind and the expectation of a WB-breeder a purpose bred TB exactly like a race TB ?
I"m not sure I understand. Yes, some TBs were taken from the track (or originally bred for the track but ended up not being āgood enoughā for that life) and discovered as good to exceptional for another sporthorse career. There is also a reason that some registries allow approval of a TB stallion based on his racing performance.
There have been some TB lines that were bred specifically for sport other than racing, though they are definitely not common. And the older type TBs were much more suitable for the Olympic sports than many of the more modern lines.
Second, is the aptitude, the performance the only criteria for keeping a male, stallion ? That was / is the French manner, where jumping is the only serious criteria. And look where they are today and what they are doing today ā¦
In Germany, performance and aptitude are among the other criteria, even in HOL where the āKƶrkommissionā (stallion agreement board) can be broader in its evaluation.
Anyone breeding for upper level prospects is going to look at pedigree, progeny (if available) and the horse in front of them, to include temperament, conformation, movement, and ability, when choosing either a stallion or mare for breeding, regardless of that being a TB or not. In the racing world, performance trumps almost anything, since the money is in the young horse, not the 10yo, and itās cost the breed dearly in terms of some things, in many lines - soundness, hoof health, etc. For the sporthorse, longevity is much more important.
But would a European breeder use a clone, nowadays (we still donāt have much hindsight what are the consequences of breeding clones) ? Would they āpolluteā their purpose bred (over generations) marelines with a stallion on whom they donāt know much ? Who is not a ānaturalā horse but a laboratory horse ?
As mentioned, this clone IS in Europe, and IS being used by Europeans.
Clones have been around and used for breeding for quite a while now, so thereās actually quite a lot of data on them. There are even some offspring of clone offspring. There are even offspring of 2 clones bred together, 2 champion bucking horses cloned and bred together.
Iām not sure what you mean by āpolluteā. Being a clone has nothing to do with breeding in the context it seems like youāre using. Many breeders wonāt use a stallion about whom they know little, clone or not. But itās not like Geminiās pedigree is unknown - it doesnāt take much looking to find the performance records of the pedigree, which is something any good breeder would be looking into. Any any breeder of upper level Jumpers would know who Gem Twist was.
A clone IS the original in terms of breeding, particularly a stallion who does not posses the MtDNA that comes through the females, and would be different if using a recipient mare not of the originalās female line. So breeding to Gemini IS breeding to Gem Twist. How a clone is as a horse has little to do with the original, because his entire environment, from any complications during foaling, to how heās raised and handled and fed and trained, to his own personal experiences, shape him to be the adult he grows to be. The DNA is still the same, so the potential for breeding to that clone is identical to that of breeding to the original.
I donāt know the answers to these questions, but I know that I wouldnāt use a clone, wouldnāt use a stallion who has one in his ancestry ā¦ that is, I wouldnāt use him in our actual situation ā¦ in 20 / 30 years perhaps when there are no (un)known complications ā¦
Certainly there are many, many people who feel the same way. And many others who (thankfully, IMHO) donāt 
There are certain bloodlines which many people think absolutely should be preserved and moved forward. Horses from rare but valuable bloodlines (ie this whole Twist/Bon Nuit line), those who would have and should have been bred but died before being able (ie Poetin, whose clones now have offspring)
I donāt agree with cloning stallions who already made their prolific mark on the population. I am very much against High Brow Cat and Smart Little Lena having been cloned. HBC had close to 2000 registered AQHA kids (and quite a few APHA), many sons who went into breeding (also producing a great number of offspring), no idea how many dtrs were bred (or how many sons who produced large numbers of kids). SLL was also very prolific not just in offspring, but stallion sons and breeding dtrs, and he was cloned FIVE times. :no:
And last not least, I think, living in Normandy, I have access to most of the French TB-stallions. I can look at them, touch them, I can discuss with the stallion-holders, so why take a risk with a clone ?
Would you take a risk on a ārealā TB stallion standing in the US? Would you take a risk on stallion who died 5 years ago but still has frozen semen available? It sounds like you wouldnāt, because you canāt see and touch them. No problem at all with that, but that part has nothing to do with being a clone
Weāve learned a lot from cloning, from the telomere issue with Dolly and on. Now that we have such a variety, and 1st and 2nd generations of them, thereās a pretty good idea there really arenāt issues. But I can definitely understand some skepticism and wanting to see Gen 5+ before deciding anything.
And that is the #1 reason why clones need to be registered and tracked, otherwise performance metrics will be lost, and thatās whatās needed.
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There is also the Levisto clone at Zangersheide, standing alongside Levisto. I think Europeans are actually more comfortable breeding to these horses than North Americans.
Perhaps we need a new thread on clones and breeding, because right now I canāt remember if the Argentine polo player is breeding his clones or just competing them.
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Certainly there are many, many people who feel the same way. And many others who (thankfully, IMHO) donāt
He was gelded so the then owners didnāt think him āworthyā to be a stallion ā¦ evidently they were wrong ā¦ but perhaps he had flaws that were important in those times and are of no importance nowadays.
But there is also the possibility that itās just a scheme of stallion-holders to make money of unsuspecting breeders, something like : āa new stallion, multiple GPs winner, a sure thing to add blood to your marelines ā¦ā
I donāt think successful breeders are stupid. Or naive. Or like throwing their money away.
I donāt think that BWP approved the colt in furtherance of perpetrating a fraud on its members.
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Would you take a risk on a ārealā TB stallion standing in the US? Would you take a risk on stallion who died 5 years ago but still has frozen semen available? It sounds like you wouldnāt, because you canāt see and touch them. No problem at all with that, but that part has nothing to do with being a clone
If you mean TB-stallions in TB-breeding ā¦ then they donāt come with frozen semen ā¦ and I follow the TB-breeding since the early 90s so I know most papers that I encounter nowadays and have an idea of what he looked like and what his products were.
The importance of clone part here is that we donāt have an idea what the products looked like and if they would perform. The TB-stallions I spoke of have a progeny and so I know (better said : have an idea) what they can, or canāt, do.
Evidently, I am not very liberal in horse-breeding aspects, and even more so when stallion-holders do not communicate. Gem Twist was born in 1979 and was a gelding, so it doesnāt apply because semen from āGem Twistā can only be from a clone.
But what about QdR ? He died at more than 30 years but even then (not frozen) semen was available. No one knows if this semen was from the original or a clone (we know that QdR was cloned).
do you refer to my msg ?
I donāt have much esteem for most of the stallion-holders. If they can make money out of an unsuspecting breeder they will do it.
As for the successful breeders ā¦ It is a great difference if you breed with 1 or 2 mares or with 20 or 50. I imagine that the little breeder would be more hesitant to take risks ā¦ Especially with a risk that the product couldnāt participate in jumping competitions because clone-products were forbidden to do so (I donāt know if these limitations were lifted).
He was gelded early because he was āunrulyā, at least according to what Iāve read. Many young stallions are āunrulyā. Some horses end up performing better as geldings, without their extra physical ābaggageā as a stallion. I donāt know if there were testicle harnesses back them, but they are definitely in use today, and have been for several years, because of the issues of those guys hindering performance. But that has nothing to do with whether the stallion/gelding is a good producer of performance horses. I have never seen any evidence that he was gelded because the Chapots - no strangers to breeding and training and performance - thought he was unworthy. Itās also no small task to bring a stallion along, and quite a few amazing horses, both from the standpoint of highly productive and proven pedigrees, and in and of themselves, have been gelded because owners had no desire to deal with all that it takes to get to breeding a stallion with integrity. Gelding early does not always mean the horse was not worth it.
But there is also the possibility that itās just a scheme of stallion-holders to make money of unsuspecting breeders, something like : āa new stallion, multiple GPs winner, a sure thing to add blood to your marelines ā¦ā
How is this any different from Gem Twist having remained a stallion and, say, completing a performance career and not doing any breeding until he was, say, 15? Itās not. Heās not some unknown. Heās not some fluke from a nothing pedigree. There are some phenomenal stallions who did not start breeding until late in life, and sadly produced very few foal crops. The name is escaping me, but there was a really, really nice Hunter stallion who did his due diligence in the performance ring for many years, and finally retired to stud after winning all he could win. After only a couple of seasons, at that, he died unexpectedly, which, IMHO, was a huge loss to the Hunter breeding population. He was a ānew stallionā with a great performance career 
And there ARE breeders who take chances on young, unproven stallions. They do so because they have researched the pedigrees and think theyāre worth the chance. Thank goodness there are those who are early adopters - the world needs them. But they also choose their mares carefully, and use proven broodmares, so itās really not a total crapshoot.
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Of course some TB stallions breed AI. A Fine Romance was a JC TB who bred AI. Sea Accounts is a JC TB who breeds AI. The aforementioned Reputed Testomany also bred AI. Not all TB stallions go to TB mares for the purpose of a JC-registerable foal.
The importance of clone part here is that we donāt have an idea what the products looked like and if they would perform. The TB-stallions I spoke of have a progeny and so I know (better said : have an idea) what they can, or canāt, do.
Why does it matter how the clone performs? His DNA Is identical to that of the original. Performance is more than DNA - itās a matter also of upbringing, which I mentioned before. If Gem Twist was new to standing at stud at 15, nobody would have any idea what his progeny would be like either.
SOMEone has to take a chance on a new stallion. Most donāt, you are clearly one of them which is quite ok, but some do, or breeding would cease.
Evidently, I am not very liberal in horse-breeding aspects, and even more so when stallion-holders do not communicate. Gem Twist was born in 1979 and was a gelding, so it doesnāt apply because semen from āGem Twistā can only be from a clone.
What do you mean āwhen stallion-holders do not communicateā?
But what about QdR ? He died at more than 30 years but even then (not frozen) semen was available. No one knows if this semen was from the original or a clone (we know that QdR was cloned).
And that is a problem for sure. That is why we need registration of clones, to track them, their progeny, their performance, etc. That is definitely an ethical, moral, and perhaps legal issue.
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Clones are and have been registered with various registries for years.
But then, a friend bred to Levisto this year, who apparently has poor semen quality. Mare took very quickly, and we joked it was probably semen from the clone.
and this is exactly the problem I spoke of above ! Itās the mare-ownerās choice to use the clone, not the stallion holderās !
But it was a joke, OBdB. We donāt really believe the cloneās semen was used. Because you have to take the mare to Zangersheide to breed to Levisto, but not to the clone.
That said you shouldnāt be concerned about the Gem Twist clone owners tricking people. Because Gem Twist is dead. Iām gonna presume most mare owners seeking to breed to the clone are aware heās a clone. Because Gem Twist is dead. And was a gelding. But again, is dead.
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JB, what makes you say that I donāt like taking risks ? Do you know me to say something like that ?
I like taking risks with TBs ! All my mares, three, are out of different TBs (licensed stallions of HOL). One of these mares gave birth in 2016 to a filly out of a TB (not licensed directly in any sport SB, but accepted in āZā). Nowadays, and even back in the mid 90s, using TBs is risk. And I did so even if the first experience wasnāt that great (a male by a HOL licensed TB-stallion).
The first foal born for me was by Lavall, a young stallion than.
Actually Iām considering using a 6-years-old French stallion ā¦
And I did this when I only had one broodmare (in the mid 90s) or when I only have 3 broodmares (today)
so i donāt think that I donāt like taking risks ā¦ In fact I think itās the opposite !
The problem is, that you will never know if it was the original or the clone, the DNA being identical ā¦
as for the second part, if you read my msg above, thatās exactly what I said ā¦ Iām not concerned about those breeders using GT, itās their choice ā¦ itās the marketing process that I mistrust ā¦
I never said you donāt like taking risks. You yourself said you are against (at least some) risk
āAnd last not least, I think, living in Normandy, I have access to most of the French TB-stallions. I can look at them, touch them, I can discuss with the stallion-holders, so why take a risk with a clone ?ā
My reply to that was not about risk in general, but risk in the context of your comment, that is all. You implied you would not risk a clone only for the fact that you have available TB stallions you can see/touch, which to me meant you also would not risk a TB in a country where you could not see and touch him.
Using a TB is no more risky than using a HOL or OLD or KWPN. If the pedigree is known and progeny are proven, itās all the same. Either you like what the horse and his pedigree bring to the table and what he produces with the type of mare you have, or you donāt, right? There just happen to be a whole lot fewer (LOTS fewer) TBs suitable for the sporthorse breeding pool. There are those who think only TB stallions should be used, not TB mares, and there are whose who are quite ok with the TB mares being used, to bring more blood to the mix.
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I can take the risk using a TB-stallion or a young stallion, but until proven otherwise, I will not take a risk with the health of my (futur) horses.
But there is also an ethic component in my refusal to use a clone, just like, a priori, I am against TE (ET) (but I never was in a position to even consider it) and genetic manipulations.
evidently, you donāt know the market in Europe ā¦ because the risk I spoke of is not one of inability but one of unsalability (or at least very very difficult) for the product
Are eventing riders not interested in a horse by a TB sire?
