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Gem Twist clone

Sport Horse Breeding
#61

And that I totally understand, you are definitely not alone.

evidently, you don’t know the market in Europe … because the risk I spoke of is not one of inability but one of unsalability (or at least very very difficult) for the product

You are correct, I don’t really know the market in Europe. But one of the most interesting things about all this is as ladyj said - this clone, Gemini, IS in Europe and many of his foals ARE in Europe. Several are in France. Gemini is approved AES and Z. He was available in Belgium 5 years ago. A stallion son, presented to BWP, sold for 33,000 euros.

From one site:
"His first foals are born in Belgium in 2013. Several were selected and sold well on sales of foals, including Gem Carnute Z when Z sales Lanaken.

Joris de Brabander , best breeder in Europe, 40 mares inseminated Gemini alone.

In 2014, He covered in France, but also about 60 mares in Belgium and has been used in the Netherlands, Spain, Hungary and the USA.
"

So clearly there are some who don’t care about the clone aspect, and look instead at what his DNA (which is again 100% identical to the original) brings to the gene pool.

They are the early adopters, and that’s not something that is for everyone, but it’s a set of people that is dearly needed when it comes to getting new products to market :slight_smile:

Sure they are! There have been quite a few threads here alone, probably 1-2 a year, on “who are heavy or full TB sires for eventing”

1 Like
#62

I do know the market in Europe.

I know that I haven’t personally seen a thoroughbred at a csi.

I know riders and I know they’d sit on a gem twist baby like those seen in this thread without hesitation but not on some random French tb stallion with no record.

sorry, obdb, I don’t know who your market is, but it’s not fei show jumpers. And since we are talking about show jumpers, maybe you don’t know that market.

2 Likes
#63

Gemini CL is distributed by GFE, one of the major stallion holders in F.

Gemini is not licensed to breed with in the SF.

His foals, if registered in F, are Z or OC (origine constatée) or any other stud-book which licensed him.

He had, since the start of his breeding career (in F), 4 foals in 2014 (out of 7 bred mares), in 2015, he had 3 foals (out of 6 bred mares), and in 2016, he has (up to now) no foals out of 10 bred mares. The numbers for 2016 are temporary;

#64

again thank you very much for your amability ! It’s the second time you do it … It is so much easier to agress then to discuss camly.
And it is so much easier to tell everyone that you have the connections but at the end of the day, can you proove it ?
But even though I think you are a troll, I’m content for you to have those connections.

I do know the market and I have connections in F, NL, B and D.
And for one to find a professional rider in the upper sport segment ready and willing (and I may add knowledgable enough) to ride a Tb or a TB-descendant one has to rise early (sorry for the paraphrasing of the French).
Evidently, if the horse already has a record, an excellent record or nothing else, then you may find some riders but they are rare and generally they are not (really) interested in young horses.
In eventing, the situation is not the same, but the requirements are somewhat different too. The horse has to be more complete (jumper, mover, without fear but with respect, recuperation power, etc). And even in this sport, they look for already made horses.

here in Europe, when breeding with TBs, nobody wants to invest the time to train the horse(s) correctly. And when you found someone and you want to sell it afterwards, the prices (generally) don’t cover the expenses. Again, I talk about young horses.

#65

I am the one who said early in the thread that his use likely would be limited, because the use of full bloods is limited when breeding for show jumpers. For eventers? I don’t know, because of course Gem Twist was a show jumper. While I know there are of course eventers by great show jumping stallions, I have no clue if that’s the norm or a minority, because I am no expert in event breeding at all!

And as I just said, I’ve never seen a thoroughbred at a CSI. I don’t recall seeing a half tb either.

Since now you have segued again into talking about tbs in general, rather than Gemini Twist CL and his offspring, perhaps we need a new thread. Or to revive one of the many, many threads about tbs in sport.

ETA I know you think it’s aggressive, ObDb, but you are the one who accused others of not knowing the market so it’s only fair to point out

You didn’t know Gemini Twist resides and stands in Europe

You didn’t know clones and offspring of clones are registerable and eligible to compete at the FEI level.

1 Like
#66

that’s simple because I am absolutely not interested in breeding my mares to a clone, so I never bothered looking for the specifics.

There are enough TB-descendants in show jumping … sorry there were because nowadays, you are right, there are none (except perhaps Asagao but he is still too young for important competitions).

If you read this thread carefully, there are links to sporthorses descending from TB-marelines.

As to discussing TBs in general vs a TB clone … where’s the problem … he is … his whatsoever (cellprovider) was after all a TB. So every ‘problem’ with (or for) TBs is generally a ‘problem’ for him too, again because he is genetically a TB.
I don’t think I strayed from the topic, but I tried to explain my reasoning …

and if you read (god what a lot of reading you have to do !!!) the first msg of this discussion, it was a question on the height of the clone compared to the original and I replied accordingly …

#67

but you felt free to offer that Europeans won’t breed to clones. Despite there being this clone, the levisto clone, and a cruising clone Europeans are breeding to. That’s off the top of my head.

see! I’m not alone in being condescending! But as another poster said to you, we are discussing Gemini Twist, not thoroughbreds in general, although I did comment that his use would likely be limited because thoroughbred use is limited in general.

again, wow, condescending

and yet you stayed to inform us that Europeans won’t breed to this horse standing in Europe whom Europeans are breeding to.

and that we don’t know the market. But you do. Know that it isn’t tbs. But you breed tbs.

It is totally cool that you don’t want to breed to this stallion. Or any clone. But is it really really really necessary then to keep beating that dead horse? Zing! Dead horse hahaha Gem Twist.

7 Likes
#68

good joke !

#69

what do you think of stopping our little discussion here ?

it will do nothing for this threat and we can agree to disagree …

#70

As long as you grasp you’re being a jerk for no reason.

like what you just did above.

super passive agressive, dude.

really uncalled for.

5 Likes
#71

Probably most breeders aren’t interested, yet, in breeding to a clone, mostly because they don’t agree with cloning in general, sometime because they are not going to be in the early adopter category and much prefer to wait until either the clone proves he can walk the walk AND talk the talk, or have enough subsequent generations that they’re happy there aren’t health risks. No problem.

But it’s really unfair to say you won’t do something, therefore never bothered to do any research, then tell others how things are and will be when a little research (which wasn’t hard at all, the links were right in this thread) proves otherwise.

There are enough TB-descendants in show jumping … sorry there were because nowadays, you are right, there are none (except perhaps Asagao but he is still too young for important competitions).

The WBFSH Top 10 2016 Sire rankings for Eventing include 3 TBs. Heraldik XX (#2) at one point recently had 18 offspring competing at 1.4m or higher in Show Jumping.

Master Imp XX (#6) has also produced many recent upper level Jumpers and Eventers.

Several recent Olympic mounts were half TB, including some out of TB mares

So yes, there are indeed horses who are full or 1/2 TB currently doing upper level Jumpers. But also remember that because TBs as a breed have a very low % of horses competing compared to WBs these days, there are going to be fewer and fewer the higher up the ranks you go - it’s a numbers game at that point. TB infusion into the WB registries will likely always be needed, otherwise they’ll be using the same TB blood that’s already there, getting more and more irrelevant as the generations go on. It takes a special TB stallion to be approved, and rightfully so because, as you mentioned, there are “problems” they can easily bring to the game. But there have been articles by those far, far more educated than I on the importance of TBs going forward. I hope the likes of those guys will continue to keep the quest for good, modern TB stallions alive.

As to discussing TBs in general vs a TB clone … where’s the problem … he is … his whatsoever (cellprovider) was after all a TB. So every ‘problem’ with (or for) TBs is generally a ‘problem’ for him too, again because he is genetically a TB.

Well, yes and no. His genetics comes from a line of TBs purpose-bred for jumping - they are quick and catty with speed and agility and scope, traits that are still in demand today. That’s very different from just taking a TB off the track, finding he’s got what it takes for fairly upper level Jumpers, and then proclaiming he has what it takes to be a sire of Jumpers.

5 Likes
#72

I just thought I would end the little dispute but then you come with your comments …

In the French forum, we had exactly this discussion when the GFE included one of the clones in its catalogue (back in 2013). To be able to discuss the matter, I did research the subject than, but didn’t pursue it further later on because I would not use a clone.

It was than too, that I was told of the change in the regulation concerning clones and performing … but I forgot it … So you see I didn’t say I don’t do something and never did the research.

As for the role of TBs in modern horse sport … I do know the importance they had and still have and will, I hope, have in the futur.

But the great TB sport performers are rare and in between in the last decades. Fortunately there are still some F1 products to proove their value. But mostly they perform in eventing and in showjumping they are not ‘first class’ performers (which in my eyes doesn’t diminish their value).

And honestly, you can’t compare the modern TB performers with Gem Twist or Touch of Class.

#73

Ohmygod

unshun

I literally said that you can’t compare gem twist to modern tbs on the first page when you asked why anyone would want to breed to a horse from thirty years ago. Now you are using my argument? Dude.

shun.

Wait wait

unshun

and you knew but you forgot so what you said that was ignorant doesn’t count?

seriously dude, stop.

shun.

3 Likes
#74

But I’m a little qualmish (?) in this topic for another reason which was mentioned too here.

You see, the GT clones have two flaws in my eyes. The first being clone (ethical reasons, health interrogations, and so on).
The second reason is (and I really don’t want to pollute this topic with another OT) that he was purpose bred.

In my eyes, when you change the selection you change the population, not in some years but in the long run. And TBs are what they are, even GT because they were selected over centuries on the racing track. And I do know that TBs were always used in the US as sporthorses, but the vast majority of the breeding stock came from the track. And here in Europe, nearly all the TBs are raced and when not good enough a sold as sporthorses, but they were tested nonetheless.

So a TB which isn’t raced, no problem, but when the parents, the grand-parents and so on were not raced and the progeny is not raced, than you change the selection and in the end, you don’t have a TB anymore even if the paper says otherwise.

#75

no it’s just the proof that the subject doesn’t interest me !

as for the modern TBs, I’m convinced that the TBs with a first class potential exist, but they are not discovered or perhaps they went to the wrong rider. There are many reasons for a horse to not show the real potential it has.

#76

if you think so … be my guest !

#77

I can’t help it, but this statement totally reminds me of this old song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZW8Ld-pCpg

1 Like
#78

okay, I am going to have to stop you right there OBdB - generally, I enjoy your posts, but the little thing about ~ethics~, see, that really bothers me –

breeding to a clone is wrong, but using ET, AI, fresh or cooled semen – that is okay?

i have to eye-roll ANY time I hear a breeder say how unethical and playing god it is to have a clone, or breed to a clone. dude. you are doing a VERY similar thing when you use ET on your prized mare… it’s really, really, the same thin line. there is nothing natural about shipping Heartbreaker’s semen to the US, or inseminating your competition mare’s embryo into a recipient mare so she can keep competing. There just isn’t.

BTW, there are very little ‘health interrogations’ (I know you are not native english, so that’s not snark from me, I’m guessing you meant issues?) with clones that I know of once they are no longer newborns. It may surprise you to learn that in polo and bronc-riding, there have been several generations of clones.

Generally, the most difficult part is scraping the oocyte and inseminating the DNA of the horse you want to clone into it – that process can be immensely difficult and tedious, and is not always successful as we have seen. It’s not really a “one and done” process. There are people that argue that the clones as foals are less healthy, but when I think back on every foal I’ve ever met, many of them were born with health problems – maybe windswept, maybe contracted tendons, maybe a dummy – there’s plenty of normal, non-clone foals born that are not born perfectly healthy. To expect every clone to be born healthy would be unfair, as not every non-clone is born healthy either.

Anyway, you’d be surprised how many clones are running around in the world. Sapphire was cloned. Storm Cat has several clones. Many polo horses themselves are clones… It’s really becoming a powerful and ever-expanding market – and in the case where Gem Twist is concerned, it is a wonderful tool because it is giving breeders an opportunity to tap into a bloodline that otherwise was lost to the sands of time.

BTW, I don’t support cloning of stallions that already saturated the market (lookin’ at you, Smart Little Lena) – although, if someone could just clone Beaulieu’s Coolman for me, I really wouldn’t mind. Some horses just die way too young.

4 Likes
#79

beowulf, just like I said above, I never did ET and never would … that is, and I have to be honest, I never was in a position to resort to that. i don’t know what I would do if my best mare only made colts and is already over 20 …

I only did frozen semen once years ago. My last filly was born out of natural mount, because the father was a TB. And here in F, you do not find (ok, perhaps, but it is very very rarely done) natural mount.

for the rest, as you will expect, I don’t agree. There is a difference between scraping some DNA and transplanting it or siphoning an embryo to transplant it into another mare or fractioning an ejaculate and inseminate a mare, at least there is a difference for me. The 2 first interfer with nature meaning nature could never do that. You can turn it anyway you want, but no, impossible. The fractioning part is a lot like having just a tiny bit ejaculate, evidently the fractioning is made by men and stallions ith very little ejaculats are rare, but it is something similar.

It’s the same with GMO (genetically modified organisms), I won’t use them, and if there is even a tiny chance of finding them in food, I will change. I don’t use cow manure out of industrial livestock farming because of their massif use of antibiotica.

For me breeding and farming has to be done with respect for the earth and the animal and therefore I try to do what nature does, with just the exception that I choose the stallion.

#80

oh and thanks that you generally like my posts …

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