:lol::lol::lol::lol:
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I totally agree with you, none of those traits are mutually exclusive, and gaining one does not imply loosing the other.
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Not foolish to change oneās mind based on evolving knowledge 
- My second problem is that cloning is not an evolution process, It is just a āduplicationā process. You do not improve anything, you just recreate what exists.
I will counter that with AI (of whatever sort, and especially with ICSI), you are too-often forcing a breeding that in nature, would not happen. This helps perpetuate hard to breed mares, necessitating the use of drugs to get and maintain a pregnancy. In cattle, while AI is used, difficult breeders are usually culled, at least according to my cattle-breeding friends (who are mostly beef farmers, as opposed to dairy). I get that itās a matter of economics, with so much more cattle breeding going on with breeders, compared to horse breeders. But in the end, we are selecting for traits that nature does not like.
This ultimately results in status quo and is counterproducive if you try to improve your population.
IMHO, that entirely depends on who you are cloning. I said earlier that I think it was a terrible, counterproductive thing to clone High Brow Cat and Smart Little Lena (5 times no less!!!) because they already made their immensely significant mark on their discipline, not just in terms of their direct progeny, but alllll their sons and daughters who produced many more. Just no.
But in this example, this Bonne Nuit line is valuable and rare. Still valuable. Should not have been allowed to dissipate like it did. There is value to bring that blood back to the sporthorse world, specifically to Jumpers (and likely to Eventers). It has a place in todayās breeding, and will help move things forward, not reverse things. There are so few good TBs around, relatively speaking, that this is a much-needed influence even today.
Her in Quebec, they were precursors in cloning bulls for dairy production. Of course, they have several clones, but clones cannot enter the food chain so, for the moment, they just exist for science purpouses. I spoke with a vet who worked a bit on the project during his studies and he said that the clones are now useless because dairy cow genetics evolves so rapidly that by the time you clone the greatest clone on earth, his genetic is outdated and virtually obsolete.
Because there is a lot of science involved in milk production, and the huge numbers of dairy cows bred every year, I can understand this, though I donāt quite get how a clone of a current āgood do-erā is outdated so quickly.
I think the best example is with Cruising in Ireland. He was born 20 years ago. He bred almost every living mare on the island, and probably a few of their tallest goats. If you flew over Ireland and threw a rock, chances are very good you would hit a Cruising product. After an almost 20 years breeding career, how could 40 more years (2 clones x 20 years) of Cruising breeding could improve Irish breeding?
Agree, that is another cloning that should not have happened, because he left a very significant mark already on the population in general.
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using a clone for breeding is a personal decision. I will respect that.
However, there is nothing natural or āhelpfulā about extracting an embryo from a mare and putting it in another, unrelated recipient mare. Not at all. You are not āhelping natureā here - you are removing something, organic tissue, from a thing in which it belongs, and inserting it into something in which it does not, and would not ever naturally, belong.
The two principles, viewed in abstract, are really not that different - especially from an ethics stand-point.
I donāt see the merit in cloning something that has already saturated the gene pool, so I will agree with you there - I donāt understand why there are clones of Cruising, I really donāt ā but I respect someoneās ability and wherewithal to make one, and to breed to oneā¦ However, IMHO stallions like Cruising and SML have already had a chance to impact the gene pool, and after a while, it really limits the diversity of the gene poolā¦ especially if everyone is breeding to the same stallion.
I think cloning is something that is invaluable when a promising horse loses its life before its sports career/stud career is established. Like I mentioned above, it sure would be nice to have some stallions still around.
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It depends. If cloning is done with a mare from the same mare line, even the mtDNA is the same if the clone is a mare. In the case of a gelding/stallin, mtDNA is irrelevant.
Also, Gem Twist and his clones were born almost 2 000 milles and 30 years appart. Their bringing up were probably much different.
Yes, and thatās exactly why it will never be fair to compare the performance of one to the other, and why thereās no value in competing Gemini, other than out of curiosity to see how he stacks up. Itās a different competitive pool, but there are also improvements in nutrition and training, so it will never really be a valid comparison. Gemini has the advantage of being raised for the first part of his life by the Chapots, and I wish I knew if there was anything documented about how similar (or not) these 2 were to each other in temperament and general demeanor.
But the genetics are identical, so breeding to Gemini IS breeding to Gem Twist, and thatās the only real goal.
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I totaly agree with you. I explain why I would not use a clone and why I think it is not a good thing for breeding. However in the end, it is everyoneās choice and I would not argue for a ban on clones.
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It depends. If cloning is done with a mare from the same mare line, even the mtDNA is the same if the clone is a mare. In the case of a gelding/stallin, mtDNA is irrelevant.
In fact, if the mare is from the same direct bottom line, mtDNA would be the same wether the clone is a male or a femal. MtDNA has an impact on the clone itself so it is as relevant for a mare than a stallion/guelding if, as an example, you want to assess the cloneās genetic as a sport horse. Where it is irrelevant is with regards to the breeding value of a stallion because the stallion does not pass mtDNA to his foals, only nuclear DNA, and the nuclear DNA is exactly the same as the original stallion.
I donāt think you will see many clones in the sport because they can loose way more than they can gain. Chances are the clone will not be as succesfull, for many reasons as the original horse. Yet the stallion cloneās semen is the very same as the original stallion. If the stallion clone does not compete, the owner can always promote it on the originalās success. If the clone, however, is a failure in the sport, it could have major negative impact in the breeders perception.
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I donāt think any show jumpers are cloning for sport, only for breeding purposes.
ETA I lied, the Levisto clone was competing successfully
Whereas I think the polo player who has cloned a bunch of his top horses multiple times is super happy with the performance qualities of the clones. But those are I think all mares?
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I would appreciate it if someone could expand the definition of Blood, which a TB brings to Sporthorse breeding.
What EXACTLY is wanted from the TB?
Thank you.
I also wonder if a TB that HAS jump and has a parent who raced but āunfortunatelyā descends from 2 or more generations of horses that were successful Sport competitors is a useless animal for Sport Breeding?
Thoroughbreds are some of the most linebred/ genetically small gene pool animals in the horse world. Randomly breeding any 2 Thoroughbreds will result in a horse that has many of the typical TB characteristics and it will produce typically TB offspring. At the top of racing? Not likely. But faster than your average horse -yep!
For the sake of argument, I will compare them to Working Border Colllies:
Someone takes a pup from Working-bred parents and trains it for agility. They admire the focus and intensity as well as the responsiveness to the handler in the working herding Border Collie.
It succeeds in that sport.
Person takes more pups from other breeders of Herding BCs and trains for agility.
Finally the person breeds the agility dogs to each other for several generations, weāll say 3.
Never trained them to work. They have no herding credentials whatsoever.
Meanwhile breeders of Herding BCs continue to breed and train herding dogs with the same GGG grandparents as the Agility dogs, but now the names are very different 3 generations on.
What percentage of the agility bred Border Collies would be valuable to breed agility dogs? None?
Because without training them for herding one would have lost the desirable characteristics of the herding forebears that -think about it- MUST be present in the agility performer as well?
It takes a lonnnnngggg time to breed away from some traits.
If those are desirable traits in the Agility performer, why wouldnāt they have been selected for (to the level they were needed in Agility)?
This is the conclusion I see from TB x WB where the TB is a Sport performer. If it isnāt race-bred it canāt have what I need.
I donāt see how this is in line with the population genetics of the TB.
To my way of thinking a TB that has performed at the top of Sport and comes for several generations of horses that do well in Sport has proven it has what is needed to breed for Sport as both a TB and a Sporthorse.
And that the TB characteristics are thereā¦
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How does one explain a TB dam like Quarantaine producing BOTH the winner of the Grand Nationals in America and England (Battleship) AND the winner of the Prix de Diane (French Oaks) and Prix Vermeille (Quoi).
Isnāt flat racing and steeplechasing at the upper levels mutually exclusive, too?
Battleship was a successful sire of 'chasers(Floating Isle, Sea Legs) and managed to sire Tide Rips who was second in the Belmont Stakes (flat racing).
Maybe athletic is athletic in more than one Sport specialty?
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Yes, I think athletic is athletic.
I agree that in some cases, and athlete is an athlete, and he just needs the training specific for a given discipline/sport.
There are examples of this in people. Some are clearly designed for sprinting. Some are clearly designed for long distance running. They are different body types, and they physically have a genetic difference in the fast twitch vs slow twitch muscle fiber makeup. The winners of the Boston Marathon are not going to win a 100m race, no matter how hard they train, and Usain Bolt is unlikely to win the Boston.
But baseball and football and basketball are pretty different sports, with (obviously) a different skillset in ball handling, and thereās a difference in the need for speed vs staying power. But there are more than a few men who have excelled at 2 or them, even at the professional level. The sports are similar enough, even in their dissimilar way, that itās not really all that difficult, given the proper training and time, for someone to be really good at 2 of them.
Some of the physical traits that make a good TB racehorse are also the same ones which make some of them a good jumper, but to make the transition requires a very different training methodology (obviously). There are some excellent cow horses who actually make pretty good Dressage horses with the right training. They share many of the same traits, and while it would be much harder to take the successful Cutter or Reiner and turn him into a successful Dressage horse because of how differently the disciplines ask the horse to use himself, how differently his muscles have developed, itās really not that big a stretch to take the cutting-bred horse and right off the bat aim him at Dressage.
Athleticism is a bit of a nebulous term, but it involves traits that can go a variety of ways in many cases.
Athletic traits can be used in many disciplines, but it doesnāt means an āathleticā horse will excel in all of them. A reining quarter horse, a pulling belgian draft horse, a racing TB, a polo poney, a shojumping WB or an endurance racing arabian are all athletics in their own way. Some may have attributes that would benefit horses in other discipline. However each of the sports requires a specific combination of attributes. I still believe breeding has made horses so specialized in their own disciplines that it will become more and more difficult for a horse not specifically bred for a discipline to excell in it. Again, we can always find exceptions but in breeding, I donāt think it is wise to bet on the exception.
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This is why Gem Twist is so interesting to breeders: he is not an exception.
He performed at the top of the Sport of Show jumping, as did quite a few relatives. His Clone appears to have sired at least one very good prospect.
I can hear the āBut the Sport today is so different that that success is irrelevantā¦ā bus coming round the bend!
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Itās true that Show Jumping is different today than it was when Gem Twist was at his peak. Courses changed to favor more power and less speed, which made WBs better suited than most TBs. *note: not ALL courses require power without speed, some courses are open with long galloping lines, just in general.
But - and this is the big But and itās the reason GT is still relevant - Gem Twistās abilities (and his pedigree in general) were STILL what would win today. That line isnāt just something that was relevant to a very specific style of course that no longer exists. I think thatās what a lot of people opposed to that line being resurrected feel. Thereās probably SOME truth to it, but then again, those horses were so athletic - quick AND Powerful AND careful - that it is almost guaranteed that itās a matter of training a bit differently, as opposed to the horse not being suitable.
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The sport is different. That doesnāt mean every horse who was successful 30 years ago wouldnāt be successful today.
I think from a style and conformation stance, Gem Twist would likely still be successful with the right riderāwhich was always the secret for the big strided, powerful horse. There is certainly a difference between watching Gem Twist go with Greg Best and watching him go with Laura Chapot. Yes, of course Chapot was successful, but Best and GT were sooooo smoooooth.
I think you also have to take into account the mare base of today, which is very different than that which the original would have been crossed with. I think this modern mare base is better for Gemini than the older style wb mare base would have been for Gem Twist.
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Originally posted by JB View Post
In other words, what is it about a TB line with a proven history (and not just a couple of horses) of upper level/international jumping ability that turns you off because thereās no race record?
The answer is relatively simple. Itās the severity of the selection on the race track, much much stronger than any selection in sport, which is important, at least to me !
I can accept an unraced mother of a successful competitor on the track and, afterwards eventually, in sport. But to establish this method as a system and to perpetuate it just to produce sporthorses, you loose what makes the TB unique in the (horse) world, the selection on several points, all contributing to the same goal : the victory on the track.
And this victory can only be achieved if you are healthy, if you have stamina and the heart, and the will to win. But you also have to have the will to fight against the pain in your body, to surpass the fatigue and the absolute will to be the first to pass the line.
And finally, you have to have the strength, the will, the capacity or the power, āpeu importeā what you call it, to do it again and again and again, 2 times in a week, or 10 times in a month ā¦
Thatās why we as WB-breeders need a continually infusion of TB blood into our breeds. The problem is to find the TBs suitable in the actual TB-population.
To breed to a clone whose original is (would be) 40 years old is like breeding to Farnese, or Grannus or Ibrahim or other old heroes of the WB-breed.
The WB-breed has made progress in these 40 years, so why do I have to be content to use a TB of 40 years ago ?
And last but not least, TB or WB, there is no certainty that a great performer will be a great genitor !
I donāt find the the phrase anymore to quote ā¦
But nowadays, power is not any longer the ultimate goal for showjumpers. Yes, you canāt do without, but equal important are reactivity, and agility, and mind strength (as I said above). The goal today is technique and speed and agility.
A horse with power but without agility could never turn āon a handkerchiefā like some modern horse do. A big and heavy horse with great power could, probably, never develop the groundspeed to gain the hundredth of seconds in a jump-off to achieve the win.
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The very traits Gem Twist and the whole Bonne Nuit line were good at
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I remember reading that in his time the Germans were quite impressed by GT, so they were then not used to such quality.
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