Gem Twist clone

[OBdB]

GT is a TB, genetically.

As I said before, in the long run, when you change the selection mode you change the race.

Nearly all European WBs are proof of this. They changed from labor horses to ride horses, and then to modern sport horses. Because the important criteria for labor horses do not apply to sport horses.
And don’t tell me now it’s all because of TB influence. TBs were always used in the European WBs. Sometimes more (late 1900s - after 1960s) or sometimes less (just before WWII).
For the HOL, the 1930s were a difficult time, because the central office for alimentation demanded that the HOL has to become heavier … which he did over a period of years, by changing the selection modus.

So when you change the selection for TBs (and TBs, especially here in Europe are made for running) over a period of x years, you will change the horse.
Because today the criteria for selection are the races. You win that’s good, you win much that’s better and when you win Gr1 races, or more than one, than you are on top and you will contribute to define the type of TBs.
When ND started his career, he was one among others. In the end, with his successful stud-career, he is the most influent TB for defining the actual TB.
All racehorses be they sprinter, flyer, for classic distance or stayer, have to proove their value on the race track. And the racetrack, and the training for the racetrack, define what you are.

So when suddenly, for whatever reason, you decide to take away selection on and by the racetrack, and start selecting on criteria for showjumping (as example) which is much less demanding on the body but perhaps (my point of view) more demanding on the temper, character (calm, not hot, etc), the interaction human - horse, the result in x years will be a different horse.

Evidently, from the body type, a sprinter is different from a stayer. So why not having a TB which ressembles the European WB.
The question is, will this ‘new’ TB still have the qualities the WB-SB look for ?

[D_BaldStockings]

@OBdB

GT is a TB, genetically.

As I said before, in the long run, when you change the selection mode you change the race.

Nearly all European WBs are proof of this. They changed from labor horses to ride horses, and then to modern sport horses. Because the important criteria for labor horses do not apply to sport horses.
And don’t tell me now it’s all because of TB influence. TBs were always used in the European WBs. Sometimes more (late 1900s - after 1960s) or sometimes less (just before WWII).
For the HOL, the 1930s were a difficult time, because the central office for alimentation demanded that the HOL has to become heavier … which he did over a period of years, by changing the selection modus.

So when you change the selection for TBs (and TBs, especially here in Europe are made for running) over a period of x years, you will change the horse.
Because today the criteria for selection are the races. You win that’s good, you win much that’s better and when you win Gr1 races, or more than one, than you are on top and you will contribute to define the type of TBs.
When ND started his career, he was one among others. In the end, with his successful stud-career, he is the most influent TB for defining the actual TB.
All racehorses be they sprinter, flyer, for classic distance or stayer, have to proove their value on the race track. And the racetrack, and the training for the racetrack, define what you are.

So when suddenly, for whatever reason, you decide to take away selection on and by the racetrack, and start selecting on criteria for showjumping (as example) which is much less demanding on the body but perhaps (my point of view) more demanding on the temper, character (calm, not hot, etc), the interaction human - horse, the result in x years will be a different horse.

Evidently, from the body type, a sprinter is different from a stayer. So why not having a TB which ressembles the European WB.
The question is, will this ‘new’ TB still have the qualities the WB-SB look for ?

Are the Butts horses of any use for other WB breeders?

To all intents and purposes they ARE TB genetically, yet have been selected for Sport.

I am confused that on one hand the complaint with using today’s TB is that ‘they are not like the race bred staying horses we had in the 1950’s-70’s’; while on the other hand a complaint is that if they are bred for non-race Sport generationally, they will not have what WB breeders want from TBs.

This combined with 'We don’t need pure TB anymore in WB breeding at all, we will use percentage horses that are Sportbred.

I can only conclude one is singling out Registered TB no matter what as NOT for breeding Sporthorses.

The simple truth is that it is VERY easy to find a Race-bred or Chase-bred TB to cross into a Sport-bred TB family whenever that might be desirable. Eventing still has race-bred TBs competing at upper levels with success.
-IF one believes that 3-5 generations of Sport breeding pure TB’s is enough to undo 300 years of selection for ‘race’ factors like blood oxygenation, bone remodeling ability, heat dissipation, lung capacity, muscle reaction speed, etc. etc. then one needs to go back to their study of genetics.

Breeding within a closed book like TB that has been around for such along time isn’t really comparable as to loss of use when next to 50 years of Open book breeding with open registries and many mare lines to start with as the WBFSH. The variation isn’t there to begin with.

[D_BaldStockings]

Is this horse a poor type phenotypically for WB breeding?
http://www.spendthriftfarm.com/Domains/www.spendthriftfarm.com/CMSFiles/Images/Horses/MainPhotos/2726/2012-TIZWAY-51112-JOY_resized.jpg

[D_BaldStockings]

This one?
http://www.widden.com/stallions/sebring/

[vineyridge]

But we are not interesting in racing TBs. We should, if we had any sense as sport horse lovers, AVOID the modern racing TB because the majority been selected since WII (and I’d say even later) for one quality and one quality only and that is speed. The Nearco and Nearctics dominate the sire lines, and what they provided was “the speed gene” and its associated indel from North America.

We know that before Nearctic the Thoroughbred ridden by the Americans, the British and the Italians, often sourced from straight off the track, was able to excel at show jumping at the very highest levels up until the racing TB changed–that is until the mid to late 1980 after Nearctic and Northern Dancer. And the racing TB DID change all around the world (except perhaps Germany, and even they seem to have now succumbed to the lure of pure speed.)

So it seems to me that if one were looking for thoroughbreds for jumping, one WOULD focus on the old lines which were proven in the arena, not the modern ones that, in the main, are drenched with Nearctic and Northern Dancer and Mr. P lines–although Mr. P doesn’t seem to have saturated the European TB bloodlines the way he has in the US. That a clone of a horse from decades of performers is available would bring those proven genes that have been lost in the quest for pure speed that derives from, primarily, Nearctic. There are scientific papers that pinpoint Nearctic as the point time and the sire that marks the incredibly fast expansion of horses who carry the speed gene and its associated indel which he probably got from Nearco.

[D_BaldStockings]

Nearco did not ‘kill the jump’ for Napur
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/napur

Sir Shostakovich did not suffer either
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sir+shostakovich

Not saying one should look for these lines, but there ARE modern TB horses in Sport: see other TB threads.
Crossing these or horses from their families or similarly bred with a Gem Twist Clone might be a good choice, BUT the offspring cannot be registered TB and will be credited to BWP or other WB registries in the data mass.

[OBdB]

I know all this …

But (there is allways a but … ) I never said that modern TBs are not suitable for ‘refinement’ (as used in the ‘old days’). i never said it because I don’t believe it. Yes, most modern TBs are not suitable, but I found enough TBs during my visits to TB-studs here in France who are suitable.
Never mind what some here in the discussion said about … I don’t know the exact phrasing anymore (and I am too lazy to search for …) those obscur racing TBs when you can have the clone of GT. The Tbs I saw, I would have gladly used them … and in the end I did … he was not my first choice but I’m very satisfied with my filly born in 2016 by a racing TB-stallion.
Because when I search for a TB, I do it with exactly the same phaenotyp criteria I use when searching for a WB-stallion … but the TB has to have a racing record.
Evidently, that’s only my method …

I am confused that on one hand the complaint with using today’s TB is that ‘they are not like the race bred staying horses we had in the 1950’s-70’s’; while on the other hand a complaint is that if they are bred for non-race Sport generationally, they will not have what WB breeders want from TBs.

The second part is what I wrote, not as affirmation but as a question ! I would be perfectly content with a TB who jumped (in official competitions) as long as he satisfies my other criteria (phaenotyp, health, racing record, paper, mareline).

This combined with 'We don’t need pure TB anymore in WB breeding at all, we will use percentage horses that are Sportbred.

I never said that because that contrary to all I believe in breeding.
A WB with 50% blood is not a halfblood in my opinion, a halfblood descends obligatorily directly from a TB. A tree-quarter has a TB-parent and a halfblood as the other parent.
And I don’t believe that a 50% WB and a halfblood have the same breeding potential for blood and refinement (there are exceptions, I do know some of them).
But I know too that not all TBs, even if they have the desired phaenotyp, have the breeding potential for blood and refinement. Look at the old books and sometimes a TB-stallion has a heredity (for refinement) like a halfblood or the refinement characteristics do not persist in the F2 generation.

The simple truth is that it is VERY easy to find a Race-bred or Chase-bred TB to cross into a Sport-bred TB family whenever that might be desirable. Eventing still has race-bred TBs competing at upper levels with success.
-IF one believes that 3-5 generations of Sport breeding pure TB’s is enough to undo 300 years of selection for ‘race’ factors like blood oxygenation, bone remodeling ability, heat dissipation, lung capacity, muscle reaction speed, etc. etc. then one needs to go back to their study of genetics.

First a question … I’m not familar with the term chase-bred …

I can only return the argumentation … I f you think that using a TB once every 4th or 5th (or even later) generation will permanently change a horse that was ‘created’ over hundreds of years to do labor or pull carriages, than you have to go back to study genetics.

But I never said 3-5 generations will undo anything … When searching for a TB-stallion to breed my WB-mares, I’m looking for races, and not 1 or 2, I’m looking for a horse with 30 / 40 / 50 races over several seasons. And they have to be successful, not Gr1 successful, but still with significant success.
And they have to have the type …

Breeding within a closed book like TB that has been around for such along time isn’t really comparable as to loss of use when next to 50 years of Open book breeding with open registries and many mare lines to start with as the WBFSH. The variation isn’t there to begin with.

Can you explain because I don’t understand at all …

[OBdB]

So it seems to me that if one were looking for thoroughbreds for jumping, one WOULD focus on the old lines which were proven in the arena, not the modern ones that, in the main, are drenched with Nearctic and Northern Dancer and Mr. P lines–although Mr. P doesn’t seem to have saturated the European TB bloodlines the way he has in the US. That a clone of a horse from decades of performers is available would bring those proven genes that have been lost in the quest for pure speed that derives from, primarily, Nearctic. There are scientific papers that pinpoint Nearctic as the point time and the sire that marks the incredibly fast expansion of horses who carry the speed gene and its associated indel which he probably got from Nearco.

Yes and no, for me, the kind (classic distance, stayer, miler) is not really important if the chosen stallion has the type I’m looking for … but yes, most sprinters and flyers don’t correspond to my criteria !
But I do know some ND-descendants (and even with ND in- or linebreedings) who I find interesting (according to what I am looking for …

But what I am doing here is merely stating my opinions for whatever they are worth … most breeders, even here in Normandy, are skeptic, because they are afraid to dilute the jumping aptitude. In the end, they have horses who can jump mountains, but don’t do well enough in modern competitions because they lack reactivity, agility, heart, stamina, etc.

Why do you think a majority (or a significant part) of the WB-stallions need bloodmares as the ideal breeding partner ?

[vineyridge]

Chase-bred is the same as National Hunt bred. The horses are purpose bred for jumps racing, with steeplechasing, not hurdling, as the pinnacle of jumps racing sport (in most of the world, but not in the US).

[OBdB]

@vineyridge

Chase-bred is the same as National Hunt bred. The horses are purpose bred for jumps racing, with steeplechasing, not hurdling, as the pinnacle of jumps racing sport (in most of the world, but not in the US).

ok thanks !

[Elles]

Kathleen Kirsan has her own ideas with regards to this subject. According to her the jump very often comes from the TB genes in a pedigree.
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/show-jumpers.html
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/cavalier-royale.html

[snaffle1987]

PS there is an entire thread on Gem Twist blood and Bonne Nuit lines that are still existent. There isn’t much available and many have forgot about this tremendous blood line. The Bonne Nuit lines were bred for steeplechase horses but they found their way into the show jumping world and have produced many top jumpers and eventers. Yes, when breeding to Gem’s clone, you are choosing to breed to a genetic copy of a successful horse. When doing so; you are making that choice to invest because of the genetic line, to preserve and continue that line and to build upon it. While the clone itself hasn’t had any sport horse career; in all honesty he doesn’t need one. He’s the last of his kind out there.

This is the type of TB that has been lost in the last 20-30 years. And to be honest, the clone of Gem Twist is the last shot to preserve this line and continue to build upon it in a significant way.

[JB]

OBdB, so I think I understand what you were saying a little better now, about “then you don’t have a TB” - you were saying, I think, that if you start looking at horses bred for jumping, then you don’t have a racing TB. Yes? If so, of course Well, usually, but not necessarily.

Because clearly if you can take horses OT and have them excel at jumping, maybe because they were a failed race horse (as in, colossal failure), or because they did OK but suffered an injury which would not make it worth the time and expense of rehabbing and then putting them back on the track, so they’re sent off for a 2nd career, or any number of other reasons they did not have a lung or successful track life, then you can be breeding TBs for jumper/eventing/dressage, and breed a mare who produces them to a racing TB stallion and produce a racer.

Always? No, for sure, because it does depend on the individuals of course. You can’t take a racebred TB mare who didn’t race (or was a miserable failure) and was from a poor racing line, and produce a winning racehorse, no matter how nice the stallion (and there are some American TB breeders who have tried, unfortunately lol)

I’m curious (from a breeding perspective) why you want TB stallions who have not just the type you want (that part I get), but who also have a long, successful racing record. Are you also looking at what their progeny have done in the show ring? Are they approved with a registry (I’m assuming yes?) and if so, are they approved on anything but a successful race record?

TBs in general have the heart/stamina/distance - it’s what they’ve had bred into them from the beginning, so it’s not a modern trait (aside from the more recent speed selection as opposed to staying power).

In other words, what is it about a TB line with a proven history (and not just a couple of horses) of upper level/international jumping ability that turns you off because there’s no race record?

[OBdB]

@JB

OBdB, so I think I understand what you were saying a little better now, about “then you don’t have a TB” - you were saying, I think, that if you start looking at horses bred for jumping, then you don’t have a racing TB. Yes? If so, of course Well, usually, but not necessarily.

No, not really. The TB is selected for racing. That’s what makes the TB today. But when you start to change this selection modus, meaning you stop racing and you continue in this manner over generations, then you have a horse who may be TB by his ancestors, but in reality you created something different. Racing is an essential point for the TB.
Evidently, by choosing raced TBs in these lines, you slow down the change.
What you change, is, in my opinion, not only the type of horse but the character and some health aspects too. For instance, training a horse for racing or training a horse for jumping or dressing is absolutely not the same. training a horse for racing is much much more demanding, on the body, than sport training. So the ‘toughness’ is no selection criteria anymore because the training is ‘much less tough’. But a criteria on which you do not select tends to disappear. Also, when you don’t race a horse, I imagine you have reason to do so, no speed maybe one reason, but another reason is certainly the susceptibility to health concerns. Which would be a aggravating factor (I still think here in generations).
In the end, meaning x generations later, you have a genetical TB, but without the toughness, probably with another type and with another character.

@JB

Because clearly if you can take horses OT and have them excel at jumping, maybe because they were a failed race horse (as in, colossal failure), or because they did OK but suffered an injury which would not make it worth the time and expense of rehabbing and then putting them back on the track, so they’re sent off for a 2nd career, or any number of other reasons they did not have a lung or successful track life, then you can be breeding TBs for jumper/eventing/dressage, and breed a mare who produces them to a racing TB stallion and produce a racer.

It would slow down the process, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to breed with flawed horses (= health issues). What I look for by using TBs is not only a lighter type, but also sanitary toughness. I think it’s something you can select …

@JB

Always? No, for sure, because it does depend on the individuals of course. You can’t take a racebred TB mare who didn’t race (or was a miserable failure) and was from a poor racing line, and produce a winning racehorse, no matter how nice the stallion (and there are some American TB breeders who have tried, unfortunately lol)

I’m curious (from a breeding perspective) why you want TB stallions who have not just the type you want (that part I get), but who also have a long, successful racing record. Are you also looking at what their progeny have done in the show ring? Are they approved with a registry (I’m assuming yes?) and if so, are they approved on anything but a successful race record?

TBs in general have the heart/stamina/distance - it’s what they’ve had bred into them from the beginning, so it’s not a modern trait (aside from the more recent speed selection as opposed to staying power).

But it’s something you will loose if you don’t select on it. And I doubt that you maintain the same level if the stamina / heart is less in demand in the new breed destination.

@JB

In other words, what is it about a TB line with a proven history (and not just a couple of horses) of upper level/international jumping ability that turns you off because there’s no race record?

I will respond later to your last question …

[Elles]

A Thoroughbred can never “win” in sport horse breeding. People always seem to have something to hold against it.

[Cumano]

I do not necessarly want to respond for OBdB, but her reasonning made sens to me from a “warmblood breeding” standpoint. A war starts everytime it is said, but WB breeders uses TB as a complement to their program, and not as a substitute to any other stallion. TB stallions are “specialists” in WB breeding. They are used to bring blood mostly, but also to refine. They are not expected to bring strenght, scope, size, movement or even jumping abilities, as all those elements are already present in WB the warmblood base, and as numerous great stallions passes these traits with great regularity. A good TB stallion simply has to bring blood, without being too detrimental to all other sport related traits.

TBs have been bred for generations as race horses, and in that process, developped traits that WB breeders are looking for. My understanding of what OBdB says is that if you select TB’s based on sporthorse traits specificaly, maybe you will improve these traits in the horse, but in the meantime, you may loose what TB are specifically expected to bring and that came from that racing selection.

@JB

Just like the American TB isn’t quite the same as the English TB isn’t quite the same as the French TB, and short distance families aren’t quite the same as long distance families aren’t quite the same as 'chasers. They are still still TBs, diverged a little bit from each other, to fit a variety of needs.

TBs are TBs via genetics, nothing else. Not type, not discipline, just genetics.

This, I think, is where you are wrong and maybe you miss an important point. Many people seems to think the TB is a magical ingredient you just add and that improves everything. You breed to the individual, for a specific trait. Some traits, such as what we call blood, is more prepotent in TB population. But the population evolves rapidly, and some traits (good and bad) may be lost through selection. Stating otherwise simply imply denying the value of selection. Some TB stallions, even some well known performers, were notorious for not passing blood to their offsprings.

[Cumano]

@beowulf

okay, I am going to have to stop you right there OBdB - generally, I enjoy your posts, but the little thing about ~ethics~, see, that really bothers me –

breeding to a clone is wrong, but using ET, AI, fresh or cooled semen – that is okay?

i have to eye-roll ANY time I hear a breeder say how unethical and playing god it is to have a clone, or breed to a clone. dude. you are doing a VERY similar thing when you use ET on your prized mare… it’s really, really, the same thin line. there is nothing natural about shipping Heartbreaker’s semen to the US, or inseminating your competition mare’s embryo into a recipient mare so she can keep competing. There just isn’t.

BTW, there are very little ‘health interrogations’ (I know you are not native english, so that’s not snark from me, I’m guessing you meant issues?) with clones that I know of once they are no longer newborns. It may surprise you to learn that in polo and bronc-riding, there have been several generations of clones.

Generally, the most difficult part is scraping the oocyte and inseminating the DNA of the horse you want to clone into it – that process can be immensely difficult and tedious, and is not always successful as we have seen. It’s not really a “one and done” process. There are people that argue that the clones as foals are less healthy, but when I think back on every foal I’ve ever met, many of them were born with health problems – maybe windswept, maybe contracted tendons, maybe a dummy – there’s plenty of normal, non-clone foals born that are not born perfectly healthy. To expect every clone to be born healthy would be unfair, as not every non-clone is born healthy either.

Anyway, you’d be surprised how many clones are running around in the world. Sapphire was cloned. Storm Cat has several clones. Many polo horses themselves are clones… It’s really becoming a powerful and ever-expanding market – and in the case where Gem Twist is concerned, it is a wonderful tool because it is giving breeders an opportunity to tap into a bloodline that otherwise was lost to the sands of time.

BTW, I don’t support cloning of stallions that already saturated the market (lookin’ at you, Smart Little Lena) – although, if someone could just clone Beaulieu’s Coolman for me, I really wouldn’t mind. Some horses just die way too young.

I also am one of those who have ethical issues with clones. Of course people had ethical issues with AI, then Frozen AI, then Embryo transfer, then ICSI when they all started, yet I am doing most of them now, so I may find myself a little foolish if I read my post in a couple of years but I doubt. Here are my problems:

• I do not think you can compare Cloning to the other assisted breeding techniques. With AI or ET, you “help” nature but there is still a father, a mother and fertilization. With cloning, you don’t have any of those, you create a new individual from the genetic material of an existing one.

• My second problem is that cloning is not an evolution process, It is just a “duplication” process. You do not improve anything, you just recreate what exists. This ultimately results in status quo and is counterproducive if you try to improve your population. Her in Quebec, they were precursors in cloning bulls for dairy production. Of course, they have several clones, but clones cannot enter the food chain so, for the moment, they just exist for science purpouses. I spoke with a vet who worked a bit on the project during his studies and he said that the clones are now useless because dairy cow genetics evolves so rapidly that by the time you clone the greatest clone on earth, his genetic is outdated and virtually obsolete. I think the best example is with Cruising in Ireland. He was born 20 years ago. He bred almost every living mare on the island, and probably a few of their tallest goats. If you flew over Ireland and threw a rock, chances are very good you would hit a Cruising product. After an almost 20 years breeding career, how could 40 more years (2 clones x 20 years) of Cruising breeding could improve Irish breeding?

[OBdB]

@Elles

A Thoroughbred can never “win” in sport horse breeding. People always seem to have something to hold against it.

That’s something that doesn’t apply to me because I love TBs, in pure race and in cross-breeding …

[JB]

@Cumano

I do not necessarly want to respond for OBdB, but her reasonning made sens to me from a “warmblood breeding” standpoint. A war starts everytime it is said, but WB breeders uses TB as a complement to their program, and not as a substitute to any other stallion. TB stallions are “specialists” in WB breeding. They are used to bring blood mostly, but also to refine. They are not expected to bring strenght, scope, size, movement or even jumping abilities, as all those elements are already present in WB the warmblood base, and as numerous great stallions passes these traits with great regularity. A good TB stallion simply has to bring blood, without being too detrimental to all other sport related traits.

TBs have been bred for generations as race horses, and in that process, developped traits that WB breeders are looking for. My understanding of what OBdB says is that if you select TB’s based on sporthorse traits specificaly, maybe you will improve these traits in the horse, but in the meantime, you may loose what TB are specifically expected to bring and that came from that racing selection.

I can certainly understand the selective breeding issues. Those very things have degraded the TB we have today, with very specific things bred for (ie early speed) and other things ignored and unwittingly degraded - hoof health, leg soundness.

I think it is possible to retain both the benefits of a race-bred TB, and cultivate sporthorse traits, at least to a large degree. The fact that there are individuals who were successful at the track (or who came from very successful lines but an injury precluded a solid racing career) AND produced upper level TBs proves that. Yes, if you continually breed a line of TBs specifically for jumping (or Dressage), you are not going to have, in the end, horses suitable for racing. But you can cultivate a line of TBs for sport, bringing in regular racing blood, and have a TB who brings the best of both worlds to the mix.

This, I think, is where you are wrong and maybe you miss an important point. Many people seems to think the TB is a magical ingredient you just add and that improves everything. You breed to the individual, for a specific trait. Some traits, such as what we call blood, is more prepotent in TB population. But the population evolves rapidly, and some traits (good and bad) may be lost through selection. Stating otherwise simply imply denying the value of selection. Some TB stallions, even some well known performers, were notorious for not passing blood to their offsprings.

When I said that, I was still very unclear what OBdB meant in the seeming contradiction of points, but I think that was clarified for me in the more recent comments.

[Cumano]

Finaly, sorry If I write too much, but with regards to the original question, I guess there might be many reasons, most of them having been mentionned before. In the end, clones are technicaly identical twins, but with different mtDNA. Identical twins are not always copies. Also, Gem Twist and his clones were born almost 2 000 milles and 30 years appart. Their bringing up were probably much different.