What is the market bearing on a non papered warmblood weanling with good bloodlines? Ballpark estimate?
Thanks
Germany - not Reals more than 500€ but guees thats not relevant for you …
How does the seller “prove” the bloodlines?
We would just look at the quality of the horse in front of us or have somebody help you who has a good eye. If these are well known sport horse bloodlines, often the offspring aren’t registered because the sire and/or dam were actually show horses (and isn’t that the point?) and show owners often don’t bother with the registries and inspections if the horses are winning, stallions are gelded to sell for big money as junior horses, etc…
This may upset breeders because we spend a lot of money with the registries, but it wouldn’t make sense to pay more for a lesser horse because it had better papers. And if somebody had a very talented prospect without papers, somebody with an eye for talent is going to scoop it up regardless. So this question is very dependent on the horse that you are considering!
Of course, if this is an untalented creature, then I would say not much money at all, if anything.
[QUOTE=RobinL;7016244]
How does the seller “prove” the bloodlines?[/QUOTE]
This. Without papers, the bloodlines are unknown, regardless of what the seller says, so you just have to look at the horse. The way some sellers operate, as a buyer I wouldn’t even feel certain that the breed was accurate, much less the pedigree. Well, unless it was blindingly obvious (like my unregistered Belgian Draft gelding), but there’s a lot of pedigree variation in warmblood type horses.
What is the market bearing on a non papered warmblood weanling with good bloodlines?
How can you proove the bloodlines? No papers (and DNA validation) = no bloodlines to be put on the table to influence a price tag. Period.
So it leaves the qualities and strenghts of the weanling in front of you to judge for the price. Is he well put together, good temperament, well behaved, nice mover?
I think less and less buyers are taking sellers words for cash nowadays. So it will become more and more difficult for a seller who wants to sell an unpapered “allegedly well bred” weanling to do so for decent money when there’s hundreds of “well bred” registered ones for cheap prices on the market.
Ok, so what is a well bred registered foal going for nowadays?
Honestly, if buying a young horse (foal to 3 years) I wouldn’t even look at anything without papers. I might consider an older, going show horse without papers based on show record, training, and mature-conformation. For a prospect, I want proven bloodlines to know what I’m likely to have when my horse is ready to go undersaddle.
For a registered/papered/branded warmblood, I’d spend up to $15K for the right bloodlines, but wouldn’t consider American, Canadian (unless by Rio Grande) or RPSI -registered warmbloods.
Important to add, when I’m looking at a prospect, I’m always considering re-sale. Papers (bloodlines, provable-age, possible breeding potential) are important to many potential customers, even when a horse has a good show record.
If you are nervous about the seller’s credibility regarding the bloodlines, you could always ask for DNA parentage verification to prove parentage. Not expensive and it might already be done.
[QUOTE=pasodqueen;7016470]
Ok, so what is a well bred registered foal going for nowadays?[/QUOTE]
It depends on the quality of the individual, as well as other factors. Many will be between $9K and $15K, depending on quality of movement, conformation, reputation and location of the seller and whether the seller is eager or less eager to sell.
How does the seller “prove” the bloodlines?
Exactly my thought.
If these are well known sport horse bloodlines, often the offspring aren’t registered because the sire and/or dam were actually show horses (and isn’t that the point?) and show owners often don’t bother with the registries and inspections if the horses are winning, stallions are gelded to sell for big money as junior horses, etc…
Show owners may not care as much about registries or inspections, but most responsible breeders do, and every horse has a breeder even if it lands with a “show owner”.
Ok, so what is a well bred registered foal going for nowadays?
A genuinely well bred foal usually comes from a breeder who will have registered it. Not sure where you’re going with this newer question, but if you’re looking for the price of well bred registered foals to use to determine a value for a supposedly well bred unregistered foal there’s not going to be much correlation. Most people will look at an unregistered foal as a grade horse even if you swear he’s by Totilas.
For a prospect, I want proven bloodlines to know what I’m likely to have when my horse is ready to go undersaddle.
This. There is a reason for understanding and appreciating bloodlines, and it goes beyond the snob appeal of the registration papers. Otherwise a nice enough looking foal may grow up to look like a Quarter Horse with a nasty temperament and soundness issues, and lo and behold he’s “just like Dad”, but without knowing who “Dad” was you’ll be blind-sided instead. Or your “warmblood” could be a PMU baby by Truck and out of Canada.
I realize some people don’t put much stock in pedigrees or registries, and some people seem to take breeders entirely for granted, but every nice horse came from somewhere, and it probably came from a BREEDER who understood PEDIGREES and was affiliated with a reputable REGISTRY. And Thank God for it.
While yes it is true that we don’t “ride the papers” the reason our horses have improved in type, movement, conformation and sport is because breeders work within the structure of their registry (whether it be Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch, Holsteiner, Trak, etc.). Therefore to continue to advance our performance horses it is important to inspect and register our breeding stock. it is important to understand the qualities that certain blood lines may bring to the table, to understand conformation and movement assessment, to understand certain breeding “nicks”, to understand the goals of a particular breeding. This is why the German, Dutch and Nordic countries have excelled in breeding top quality sport horses and one of the obstacles I think we have in the US (we are too individualistic and do not generally want to work within the confines of a structured organization). JMHO:)
[QUOTE=password;7016377]
We would just look at the quality of the horse in front of us or have somebody help you who has a good eye. If these are well known sport horse bloodlines, often the offspring aren’t registered because the sire and/or dam were actually show horses (and isn’t that the point?) and show owners often don’t bother with the registries and inspections if the horses are winning, stallions are gelded to sell for big money as junior horses, etc…
This may upset breeders because we spend a lot of money with the registries, but it wouldn’t make sense to pay more for a lesser horse because it had better papers. And if somebody had a very talented prospect without papers, somebody with an eye for talent is going to scoop it up regardless. So this question is very dependent on the horse that you are considering!
Of course, if this is an untalented creature, then I would say not much money at all, if anything.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=pasodqueen;7016470]
Ok, so what is a well bred registered foal going for nowadays?[/QUOTE]
This is a complicated question. On one hand they are worth what the buyer wants to pay and what the seller is willing to take. But the variables that go in to that valuation depend on a number of different factors.
But something I think that is very often overlooked, and will definitely change the value of the prices, is the show record and inspection reports/scores, of the actual young horse.
With USEA FEH/YEH, USDF DSHB and Hunter Prospects classes, and with many breed organizations inspecting young horses as suckling foals to 2 year olds, the horses that breeders genuinely feel are the best of the best, and the truest prospects with potential will come with their own competition record.
While it does increase the price, the value is in the outside, unbiased opinions of professional judges, same as with compition ridden horse.
As a buyer if a weanling or yearling is advertised with a show record, you should ask to see (if the seller hasn’t volunteered them upfront) the score cards with judges or inspectors notes.
You can prove a foal’s bloodlines with a breeding certificate though, right? Even one not inspected and registered?
The foal can still be DNA tested…can do something like PHR
http://www.phr.com/documents/REGISTRATION-APP.pdf
"We would just look at the quality of the horse in front of us or have somebody help you who has a good eye. "
You ride the horse not the papers. There are many many well bred horses in all disciplines including racing that never live up to their pedigree on paper.
[QUOTE=DLee;7017447]
You can prove a foal’s bloodlines with a breeding certificate though, right? Even one not inspected and registered?[/QUOTE]
Not at all. A breeding cert is just a statement from a stallion owner that they supplied a shipment of semen to a breeder. The stallion owner cannot state how the semen is used. They can state who it was intended for. Even at tb farms - if a breeding cert was completely reliable the JC never would have had to require dna testing
What does “non-papered” mean in this context? One can have a breeding certificate, so a known pedigree, but the foal doesn’t have any registry papers.
It’s still going to depend hugely on who the parents are and what they have done. For example: When I was looking at foals about 3 years ago, I sort of did my search based on the stallion for a bit. In general, my findings were that the asking price out of proven mares was about double that of unproven mares. So, give or take, $4k vs $8k. The lower priced ones were not registered, therefore “non-papered”, but the pedigree was still known.
If stallion is known, ie there’s a breeding certificate, but the mare has an unknown pedigree, I’d expect a bit lower even, UNLESS the mare has a proven performance history.
Disagree that “without papers you don’t know the bloodlines.” We breed both papered and non-papered (we’re eventers, performance not paper is our mantra), and the paperwork is the same. We maintain full documentation on all breedings, and each is accompanied by our own “papers” signed by us and the attending veterinarian. Just depends on whether we’ve taken them to an inspection or not, plus some are not by approved stallions (but are approved by us).
Right now, in our barn we have a gelding who is not registered. He can be “registered” because he is a pinto. His dam was a winning show horse, she was registered Paint/Pinto. His sire was a Trakehner who competed through Grand Prix. Because this gelding is from a performance proven family and is a “talented, anybody can ride” type, he isn’t much “cheaper” than his stablemate who was one of the highest scoring foals in the nation when he was inspected. Papers are only as good as the horse in front of you. Reputable breeders have no reason to lie about a horse’s parentage. Their reputation is at stake!
