George Morris on the SS list

[roseymare]

People seem to not understand the criminal justice system AT ALL. And then they try to extrapolate this misunderstanding to SS. In reality it can turn out to be really quite the opposite of what they say that they want- oversight of child molesters. Maybe that is the point? Maybe they do not want anyone to be punished for child sexual abuse.

The horse set needs to calm down. Some of the society breed club members are acting as if they are going to choose this hill to die on.

[Ghazzu]

@alicen

Are there any former ruler- wielding nuns who could address Figment’s question?

Way back in the day, circa 1959, I had some lessons while being ponied with my instructor right by my side ( I did have reins - two of them in fact). Whether from frustration or concern for the horse or both, whenever my hands assumed the piano hand position she would rap my knuckles with her crop - not all that very hard -just a bap-bap. Miss B didn’t call them piano hands. She called them “the course hands of a scrubbing woman using a washing board”. Then, I was a shy, timid child and certainly not accustomed to corrections of a physical nature, but I knew her actions stemmed from a deep concern that I got it right. Whether or not an other method would have been more effective? As an ingenue, how was I to know?

Perhaps a sharp verbal “Hands!” ?

ETA: Realized upon re-reading you weren’t actually asking what would have been a better method, but pointing out you didn’t have a basis for comparison.

[vineyridge]

@YankeeDuchess

I can see that you might have video evidence that says he was wrongly convicted in court on the basis of a specific incident, but I still don’t see how a videotape could establish that he never abused a child, ever. It’s the difference between BNT being innocent wrt a specific incident vs, being innocent of any abuse, ever.

The poster did not identify the trainer she knows to be innocent, so how do we know if it was a ban by “criminal disposition” vs a SafeSport investigation? Yes, SafeSport issues bans based on criminal convictions, but if the miscarriage of justice was in the criminal courts, I don’t see why SafeSport should be blamed.

Are you saying that SafeSport should not ban people via criminal disposition because the criminsal justice system sometimes wrongly convicts?

No. I’m not saying that Safe Sport should not rely on convictions.There really is nothing else that they can do. But to answer your first paragraph, how can anyone ever prove that they were not innocent of any abuse ever? It’s possible to allege specific incidents and prove or disprove them, but a general allegation without supporting incidents of abuse? Impossible.

I merely brought up the fact that miscarriages of justice can occur, and people who believe that one has happened will support the person involved.

[Silk]

@Figment

I can separate that he has contributed a lot to the sport from that of which he is accused. I can not understand allowing someone to berate, belittle and throw stuff at you because he is amazing at what he does (and pay for it).

Above is quote from Pennywell Bay. I once witnessed a fairly bnt yell and throw a coke can at a student in the schooling ring. The mom was standng right there. That trainer did many other things widely known, including verbally and physically abuse his then girlfriend who had bruises. I still don’t understand why that mom let her daughter continue riding with that trainer, but, it is indicative of a lot we are discussing on this important thread. Why, and why pay for it? [HR][/HR]

• Qu

I watched a trainer (I had just moved to his barn) throw a metal rake at a horse with a teen on him. Rake got stuck in horse’s tail. Horse went nuts (rightfully so). Kid stayed on but WOW. I moved my horses the next day. Yes, KId’s parent was watching the lesson. Parent did not react at all. I still dont understand why people choose to train with trainers such as this.

[Crashing_Boar]

@alicen

Are there any former ruler- wielding nuns who could address Figment’s question?

Way back in the day, circa 1959, I had some lessons while being ponied with my instructor right by my side ( I did have reins - two of them in fact). Whether from frustration or concern for the horse or both, whenever my hands assumed the piano hand position she would rap my knuckles with her crop - not all that very hard -just a bap-bap. Miss B didn’t call them piano hands. She called them “the course hands of a scrubbing woman using a washing board”. Then, I was a shy, timid child and certainly not accustomed to corrections of a physical nature, but I knew her actions stemmed from a deep concern that I got it right. Whether or not an other method would have been more effective? As an ingenue, how was I to know?

A digression not concerning sexual abuse, but relating to instruction now considered “too harsh.”

Up-thread are several lamentations that our show jumpers are no longer No. 1 in the world, wondering if the American Jumping Style which peaked in the 80’s is now passe’. Reasons given are different kinds of horses, courses, etc. and are all valid topics of discussion.

However, I’d like to just throw out one other observation:

Maybe we’re too mentally fragile today and less committed to train as hard as was common then.

People who came up in those old days, particularly without tons of money, and rode with exacting sticklers like Victor Hugo-Vidal, George, Bert deNemethy and various of the old Ft. Riley trainers, (or Bruce Davidson’s barn on the eventing side) were not raised by today’s helicopter parenting style with self-esteem building as a priority. Instead, it was “Stand & Deliver!” No one cared how you “feel,” just EXECUTE! Parents weren’t hovering and mouthing postmodern psychobabble, promoting trained helplessness and mental fragility. No one was telling teens that “words are violence” and you need society’s protection from “uncomfortable thoughts.” And everybody definitely DIDN’T get a trophy. You had to work as hard at riding as everything else and EARN success and respect from both teachers and peers. Even if you were filthy rich, nothing was “given.”

Schoolteachers brooked no backtalk, parents backed up adults in authority, and no excuses were made for poor performance in school. Today every sub-par performer gets a Dx “label” and some excuse for either acting out or flunking out, and believe me that has not improved our workforce! Equestrian sport of the time must be seen in that context.

Riding over fences was an elite sport partaken in by probably 1/100th of the 1% (still is!) and at the levels of Big Eq and the road to Grand Prix, lame excuses would get you summarily dismissed. Just like in a good private school, the default was to show up neat, clean and appropriately turned out, be respectful and quiet and try your absolute best, more out of respect for the sport itself than even the personality of the instructor. Everyone understood they were part of something bigger than themselves; the quest for Excellence in horsemanship. It was a great privilege to even be a part of that, let alone at the highest levels. Following WWII, yes, nationalistic pride figured in there prominently. This began after all as a competition by and for military officers. Toughness and respect went without saying.

I believe that modern society’s pandering to, dare I say active promotion of hypersensitivity, anxiety syndromes, self-absorption, victimhood real or imagined as a primary identity, and cosseting in mental “safe spaces” or “comfort zones” is the real culprit in the slow downgrading of American equestrianism. The Greatest Generation charged through a storm of hot lead on the beaches of Normandy and Guadalcanal at 18 years old; today’s juniors are unhinged by “mean tweets!”

The last few days I’ve spent at a large recognized regional show and watched eq. horses, bored and sour, climb over the fences wringing their tails with their ears pinned. I’ve watched riders pull rails jumping 2’ 9". The jumps for many divisions seemed even lower than they were last year. It seems a small minority of the H/J population can now be expected to handle even 3’? In the heyday of mean, nasty ol’ George, that was at least the height for everyone but small ponies! All horses and adults jumped 3’ 6" and most made it look easy.

There is nothing wrong with riding at the recreational levels; it’s where most people top out and enjoy the sport. But let’s not kid ourselves that Excellence on the International stage is going to be returning any time soon. I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

[alicen]

A shout out to the good therapists!

[newtopicnewalter]

@Crashing Boar

Doesn’t mean I project my experience onto everyone I meet, public or private. Maybe y’all ought to hang your own abuse on the people who DID it, instead of projecting it onto George?

My post above should not be construed as “projecting it onto George.” I am perfectly capable of “…hang(ing) my abuse on the people who DID IT.”

But I would have to be willfully obtuse to ignore the pattern of behavior that characterizes abusive relationships, and that George’s public persona, revealed to us through his columns, his books and his clinics fit that pattern.

And that’s BEFORE we knew about the Safe Sport suspension and the specific allegations re: Jonathan Soresi.

[alicen]

@Ghazzu

Perhaps a sharp verbal “Hands!” ?

ETA: Realized upon re-reading you weren’t actually asking what would have been a better method, but pointing out you didn’t have a basis for comparison.

Exactly.

[ladyj79]

Nah, US still has top riders in show jumping, and they don’t train with george, or in that style. We haven’t lost anything.

[MHM]

@newtopicnewalter

Because when you are raised in a culture of that being normal, accepted and encouraged, it takes you a long time away from that culture to recognize it for what it is.

I think this applies to many issues we see in the horse world, whether we are talking about teaching styles, training methods, horse care, inappropriate relationships, business practices, etc., etc. So many things. And the problem is that the people who stay in the horse business never take a step away long enough to recognize that the approach they learned in the first place is not normal.

Newtopicnewalter, thank you for sharing your story. I’m so sorry you had to go through that experience.

[mvp]

@Crashing Boar

A digression not concerning sexual abuse, but relating to instruction now considered “too harsh.”

Up-thread are several lamentations that our show jumpers are no longer No. 1 in the world, wondering if the American Jumping Style which peaked in the 80’s is now passe’. Reasons given are different kinds of horses, courses, etc. and are all valid topics of discussion.

However, I’d like to just throw out one other observation:

Maybe we’re too mentally fragile today and less committed to train as hard as was common then.

People who came up in those old days, particularly without tons of money, and rode with exacting sticklers like Victor Hugo-Vidal, George, Bert deNemethy and various of the old Ft. Riley trainers, (or Bruce Davidson’s barn on the eventing side) were not raised by today’s helicopter parenting style with self-esteem building as a priority. Instead, it was “Stand & Deliver!” No one cared how you “feel,” just EXECUTE! Parents weren’t hovering and mouthing postmodern psychobabble, promoting trained helplessness and mental fragility. No one was telling teens that “words are violence” and you need society’s protection from “uncomfortable thoughts.” And everybody definitely DIDN’T get a trophy. You had to work as hard at riding as everything else and EARN success and respect from both teachers and peers. Even if you were filthy rich, nothing was “given.”

Schoolteachers brooked no backtalk, parents backed up adults in authority, and no excuses were made for poor performance in school. Today every sub-par performer gets a Dx “label” and some excuse for either acting out or flunking out, and believe me that has not improved our workforce! Equestrian sport of the time must be seen in that context.

Riding over fences was an elite sport partaken in by probably 1/100th of the 1% (still is!) and at the levels of Big Eq and the road to Grand Prix, lame excuses would get you summarily dismissed. Just like in a good private school, the default was to show up neat, clean and appropriately turned out, be respectful and quiet and try your absolute best, more out of respect for the sport itself than even the personality of the instructor. Everyone understood they were part of something bigger than themselves; the quest for Excellence in horsemanship. It was a great privilege to even be a part of that, let alone at the highest levels. Following WWII, yes, nationalistic pride figured in there prominently. This began after all as a competition by and for military officers. Toughness and respect went without saying.

I believe that modern society’s pandering to, dare I say active promotion of hypersensitivity, anxiety syndromes, self-absorption, victimhood real or imagined as a primary identity, and cosseting in mental “safe spaces” or “comfort zones” is the real culprit in the slow downgrading of American equestrianism. The Greatest Generation charged through a storm of hot lead on the beaches of Normandy and Guadalcanal at 18 years old; today’s juniors are unhinged by “mean tweets!”

The last few days I’ve spent at a large recognized regional show and watched eq. horses, bored and sour, climb over the fences wringing their tails with their ears pinned. I’ve watched riders pull rails jumping 2’ 9". The jumps for many divisions seemed even lower than they were last year. It seems a small minority of the H/J population can now be expected to handle even 3’? In the heyday of mean, nasty ol’ George, that was at least the height for everyone but small ponies! All horses and adults jumped 3’ 6" and most made it look easy.

There is nothing wrong with riding at the recreational levels; it’s where most people top out and enjoy the sport. But let’s not kid ourselves that Excellence on the International stage is going to be returning any time soon. I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

And to think: A good rape might fix all that.

[mvp]

@newtopicnewalter

Many years later, when asked why I didn’t tell them how bad things got; my answer was - I thought that was the deal.

Because everyone, even the wonderful people who supported me and sheltered me, asked the question in the same way: “Things aren’t too bad at home, right?” Making it clear that the expected and desired answer was “Yeah, it’s okay. I’m fine.” From that, I intuited (I still believe correctly) that the social contract was that they would provide help and comfort if they didn’t have to hear or (be responsible for) the gory details. NO ONE wanted to hear the details when I was a minor child, because then they would have had a duty to act and decisions to make.

Nailed it. All of it. Not only do you see part of why victims don’t report, but also what by-standing adults do to perpetuate that.

The bolded part is what I think the ISWG crowd is doing now. They will let anyone else’s children get exploited or anyone else grow up with that burden, so long as it’s not happening the time and theirs, so they don’t have to get truthful and uncomfortable and do anything about that.

[YankeeDuchess]

@vineyridge

No. I’m not saying that Safe Sport should not rely on convictions.There really is nothing else that they can do. But to answer your first paragraph, how can anyone ever prove that they were not innocent of any abuse ever? It’s possible to allege specific incidents and prove or disprove them, but a general allegation without supporting incidents of abuse? Impossible.

I merely brought up the fact that miscarriages of justice can occur, and people who believe that one has happened will support the person involved.

I think you mean to ask “how can anyone prove that they were innocent of any abuse ever?”, yes?

The respondent does not need to prove innocence, SafeSport has the burden to prove at least one violation.

One can not prove that one has never committed a violation. Fortunately you don’t have to.

The OP said that she knew for a fact that a banned BNT was innocent of abuse and had a video to prove it. If one has a video which rules out a violation in one specific time and place, how does that establish that SafeSport does not have good evidence of violations at other times and places?

Perhaps she is saying she knows that BNT was banned on the basis of one specific incident at a specific time and place, and her anonymous friend has video evidence that no violation occurred in that specific incident. Yes, then I agree that the ban is unjust if the BNT was banned on the basis of that one alleged incident. I was saying that disproving one alleged incident does not establish the absence of other credible incidents, and therefore does not establish that the ban was unjust. Due to the confidentiality provisions, I was not assuming she knew for a fact that that was the only incident investigated.

Suppose someone said “I know for a fact that that horse cannot clear a 3’ fence and provides a video with a rail knocked down. For all we know, the horse clears 3’ feet 20% or 90% of the time. Or 0% of the time.

[findeight]

Don’t see any relation between a “softer society” and sexual abuse of minors. Heard plenty of tough talking coaches even today that never molested minors.

Maybe I’m just too dense to understand why today’s sensibilities are an excuse to gloss over sexual abuse.

[vineyridge]

@YankeeDuchess

I think you mean to ask “how can anyone prove that they were innocent of any abuse ever?”, yes?

The respondent does not need to prove innocence, SafeSport has the burden to prove at least one violation.

One can not prove that one has never committed a violation. Fortunately you don’t have to.

The OP said that she knew for a fact that a banned BNT was innocent of abuse and had a video to prove it. If one has a video which rules out a violation in one specific time and place, how does that establish that SafeSport dies not have good evidence of violations at other times and places?

Perhaps she is saying she knows that BNT was banned on the basis of one specific incident at a specific time and place, and her anonymous friend has video evidence that no violation occurred in that specific incident. Yes, then I agree that the ban is unjust if the BNT was banned on the basis of that one alleged incident. I was saying that disproving one alleged incident does not establish the absence of other credible incidents, and therefore does not establish that the ban was unjust. Due to the confidentiality provisions, I was not assuming she knew for a fact that that was the only incident investigated.

Suppose someone said “I know for a fact that that horse cannot clear a 3’ fence and provides a video with a rail knocked down. For all we know, the horse clears 3’ feet 20% or 90% of the time. Or 0% of the time.

In the post we are talking about the poster said “a key witness 20 years ago withheld” video evidence that would have exonerated the trainer. The poster then goes on to talk about statutes of limitation. I read that to mean that the video was withheld 20 years ago, in part because keeping video evidence from 20 years ago that could be used today would be quite unusual. Since Safe Sport didn’t exist 20 years ago, I inferred that the poster was talking about something that happened in a judicial proceeding and the trainer was found guilty then and banned now because of a criminal conviction. I would think it would be quite uncommon for Safe Sport to go into a full investigation when a criminal conviction exists.

Perhaps I’m misconstruing what the poster meant.

[dannyboy]

I don’t believe Bert deNemethy ever called any one “fat” or “stupid” He may indeed have said “that was stupid” but not you are stupid.

At least my ex-European Cavalry officer trainers (and I had a bunch of them at various times - Russian, Polish, French, Swedish…) never said anything like that, although Major Antoniewiecz got so mad at a student one time that he threw his hat on the ground and jumped up and down on it. They were tough and no-nonsense, but none of them ever stooped to personal insults, or threw a coke can at any of us.

[roseymare]

There is a difference between being tough and being abusive.

[poltroon]

You don’t have to beat people or scream at them or intimidate them to teach them, and teach them to be brilliant. I work with youth in a variety of settings and when they come to me there’s a variety of dedication, interest, and bull-headed grit. There are as many amazing kids in this generation as there ever were; if anything, more, because more kids have access to opportunity (in not-horse activities anyway). But I can tell you the ones that have the most have it from within. You can’t beat it into them. You can sometimes inspire it into them.

When you were learning the most advanced math you took, did yelling to MATH HARDER improve your understanding?

A lot of things went right in show jumping for the Americans in the 1980s. When we were eclipsed, it’s not because we got worse at it but because others got better faster. They learned from us, polished up their advantages, and off they went. And it’s not like American show jumping is without talent or success. The sport is more global, there’s more money in it in more countries and a lot of people having longer careers at the top.

I’ve worked with a lot of coaches at various times, in three major disciplines. I know how to ride for the military-type coaches, and even for the abusive ones, but the trainers who got the most out of me engaged me differently, never doubted (to my face anyway ) that I was there to learn and do my best, and also always made me feel safe, stopping me before I made bad mistakes they could see coming, mistakes that might have injured or frightened me or the horse. I’ll note both those coaches have taught international medalists and pairs that were successful for very long careers together.

[dannyboy]

Well, sure. Being abusive is a form of self-indugence on the part of the trainer/teacher. They’re not willing to make the effort to put their ideas across in a form the student - or the horse - can understand, so they resort of physical or verbal abuse, just because they’re annoyed and it’s easier than questioning themselves.

[lesson_junkie]

Are there any stories of fathers getting physical with GM, or confronting him about their child"s mistreatment?

I can imagine what my football coach father would have said…