George Morris on the SS list

[hut-ho78]

I get irritated with people saying today’s youth are snowflakes. The Germans said that about the “greatest generation” too, thought the Americans would be easy to beat because we were soft and spoiled. Well today’s youth are making the volunteer military work. In the equestrian world we find a lot of young, tough, and ambitious riders. There are a lot of bright up and comers. Charlotte Dujardin, Laura Graves, I’m sure y’all can name some.

[AMWookey]

@Crashing Boar

A digression not concerning sexual abuse, but relating to instruction now considered “too harsh.”

Up-thread are several lamentations that our show jumpers are no longer No. 1 in the world, wondering if the American Jumping Style which peaked in the 80’s is now passe’. Reasons given are different kinds of horses, courses, etc. and are all valid topics of discussion.

However, I’d like to just throw out one other observation:

Maybe we’re too mentally fragile today and less committed to train as hard as was common then.

People who came up in those old days, particularly without tons of money, and rode with exacting sticklers like Victor Hugo-Vidal, George, Bert deNemethy and various of the old Ft. Riley trainers, (or Bruce Davidson’s barn on the eventing side) were not raised by today’s helicopter parenting style with self-esteem building as a priority. Instead, it was “Stand & Deliver!” No one cared how you “feel,” just EXECUTE! Parents weren’t hovering and mouthing postmodern psychobabble, promoting trained helplessness and mental fragility. No one was telling teens that “words are violence” and you need society’s protection from “uncomfortable thoughts.” And everybody definitely DIDN’T get a trophy. You had to work as hard at riding as everything else and EARN success and respect from both teachers and peers. Even if you were filthy rich, nothing was “given.”

Schoolteachers brooked no backtalk, parents backed up adults in authority, and no excuses were made for poor performance in school. Today every sub-par performer gets a Dx “label” and some excuse for either acting out or flunking out, and believe me that has not improved our workforce! Equestrian sport of the time must be seen in that context.

Riding over fences was an elite sport partaken in by probably 1/100th of the 1% (still is!) and at the levels of Big Eq and the road to Grand Prix, lame excuses would get you summarily dismissed. Just like in a good private school, the default was to show up neat, clean and appropriately turned out, be respectful and quiet and try your absolute best, more out of respect for the sport itself than even the personality of the instructor. Everyone understood they were part of something bigger than themselves; the quest for Excellence in horsemanship. It was a great privilege to even be a part of that, let alone at the highest levels. Following WWII, yes, nationalistic pride figured in there prominently. This began after all as a competition by and for military officers. Toughness and respect went without saying.

I believe that modern society’s pandering to, dare I say active promotion of hypersensitivity, anxiety syndromes, self-absorption, victimhood real or imagined as a primary identity, and cosseting in mental “safe spaces” or “comfort zones” is the real culprit in the slow downgrading of American equestrianism. The Greatest Generation charged through a storm of hot lead on the beaches of Normandy and Guadalcanal at 18 years old; today’s juniors are unhinged by “mean tweets!”

The last few days I’ve spent at a large recognized regional show and watched eq. horses, bored and sour, climb over the fences wringing their tails with their ears pinned. I’ve watched riders pull rails jumping 2’ 9". The jumps for many divisions seemed even lower than they were last year. It seems a small minority of the H/J population can now be expected to handle even 3’? In the heyday of mean, nasty ol’ George, that was at least the height for everyone but small ponies! All horses and adults jumped 3’ 6" and most made it look easy.

There is nothing wrong with riding at the recreational levels; it’s where most people top out and enjoy the sport. But let’s not kid ourselves that Excellence on the International stage is going to be returning any time soon. I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

I bolded the generation snowflake because its terribly offensive, and makes me think you have had zero interaction with that generation.

This spring I had the privilege of doing a month of teaching. My fellow instructors were all different ages and backgrounds, as were my students. I had staff working for me who were 52, and another who was 28, and ages in between. I had students ranging from 51 to 22.

One of my staff insisted in pigeonholing people into generations. Making rude, Callous comments and inappropriate jokes. When my students finally came to me (as the Snr most instructor) after not getting any love from one of the other staff who witnessed some of the issues, archaic teaching methods and outright abuse of power, I was appalled. Completely and utterly appalled.

He called students idiots, berated their learning methods and questions, insulted some of the junior staff. Made a racist comment to a student. Do you know who came to me? One of the 49 yr olds, one of the 30 yr olds, and two under the age of 25. Good people recognize that instruction doesnt need to be rude, berating, callous, inappropriate, demeaning. It needs to be effective, considerate and appropriate. The instructor needs to be approachable, knowledgeable and flexible.

I fired that staff within days of learning it. We conducted our own investigation, and he was sent back to his home office, and likely lost his employment. Did I feel badly? Sure I did. I dont want to be the person that ends someone else’s career. Would I do it again? Absolutely. It was the right thing to do, because he created a negative learning environment, and then proceeded to make it worse.

I have no doubt that the lessons taught by the instructors who took the approachable, knowledgeable and flexible approach created a learning environment that.my students actually learned and absorbed the material. They shut they brains off for the ones who berated, lectured and demeaned. That doesnt make them generation snowflakes, or not tough or not ready to do what the “greatest generation” did.

[dannyboy]

Speaking of self-indulgent, did you-all read Beth Raisin’s very thoughtful Commentary “A Sad Time for Horsemen” in today’s Chronicle? (I’m old-fashioned - I like the print version). She gave a very cogent, accurate explanation of SafeSport procedures and although she made it plain that GM’s ban was not entirely a shock, she was careful not to condemn him out of hand.

I couldn’t help but contrast that with the various riders’ reactions a few pages later; especially Katie Prudent who did the print equivalent of jumping up and down screaming “la la la I can’t hear you” with that “NEVER! … One instant of inappropriate behavior…NEVER!” comment.

[InTheDark]

@mvp

And to think: A good rape might fix all that.

MVP, Crashing Boars begins by stating that his “digression” is NOT concerning sexual abuse. How disingenuous is your little snipey reply. COTH sounds more like twitter every day

[Palm_Beach]

@Ghazzu

Perhaps a sharp verbal “Hands!” ?

ETA: Realized upon re-reading you weren’t actually asking what would have been a better method, but pointing out you didn’t have a basis for comparison.

Having had my hair pulled and hands rapped by nuns, I pretty quickly learned that the best way to get through the school day was to be quiet when I was supposed to be quiet and buckle down and do my work when I was supposed to do it. We had recess twice a day and plenty of q&a and discussion time, but when they said “be quiet and do your work,” they meant it. Moving forward through childhood, when someone told me something in an effort to teach me something, I listened.

[YankeeDuchess]

@vineyridge

In the post we are talking about the poster said “a key witness 20 years ago withheld” video evidence that would have exonerated the trainer. The poster then goes on to talk about statutes of limitation. I read that to mean that the video was withheld 20 years ago, in part because keeping video evidence from 20 years ago that could be used today would be quite unusual. Since Safe Sport didn’t exist 20 years ago, I inferred that the poster was talking about something that happened in a judicial proceeding and the trainer was found guilty then and banned now because of a criminal conviction. I would think it would be quite uncommon for Safe Sport to go into a full investigation when a criminal conviction exists.

Perhaps I’m misconstruing what the poster meant.

Based on your interpretation of what she was saying, I agree with you.

But the story was relayed in support of her statement that she was horrified with the procedures and process of SafeSport. If BNT was unjustly convicted in criminal court, and SafeSport says the conviction translates into a ban, I fail to see how this reflects poorly on SafeSport at all. With “criminal disposition” cases, they do not investigate. Under your interpretation, it does not make sense to use that story as a criticism of SafeSport.

[Bogie]

@Crashing Boar

A digression not concerning sexual abuse, but relating to instruction now considered “too harsh.”

Up-thread are several lamentations that our show jumpers are no longer No. 1 in the world, wondering if the American Jumping Style which peaked in the 80’s is now passe’. Reasons given are different kinds of horses, courses, etc. and are all valid topics of discussion.

However, I’d like to just throw out one other observation:

Maybe we’re too mentally fragile today and less committed to train as hard as was common then.

People who came up in those old days, particularly without tons of money, and rode with exacting sticklers like Victor Hugo-Vidal, George, Bert deNemethy and various of the old Ft. Riley trainers, (or Bruce Davidson’s barn on the eventing side) were not raised by today’s helicopter parenting style with self-esteem building as a priority. Instead, it was “Stand & Deliver!” No one cared how you “feel,” just EXECUTE! Parents weren’t hovering and mouthing postmodern psychobabble, promoting trained helplessness and mental fragility. No one was telling teens that “words are violence” and you need society’s protection from “uncomfortable thoughts.” And everybody definitely DIDN’T get a trophy. You had to work as hard at riding as everything else and EARN success and respect from both teachers and peers. Even if you were filthy rich, nothing was “given.”

Schoolteachers brooked no backtalk, parents backed up adults in authority, and no excuses were made for poor performance in school. Today every sub-par performer gets a Dx “label” and some excuse for either acting out or flunking out, and believe me that has not improved our workforce! Equestrian sport of the time must be seen in that context.

Riding over fences was an elite sport partaken in by probably 1/100th of the 1% (still is!) and at the levels of Big Eq and the road to Grand Prix, lame excuses would get you summarily dismissed. Just like in a good private school, the default was to show up neat, clean and appropriately turned out, be respectful and quiet and try your absolute best, more out of respect for the sport itself than even the personality of the instructor. Everyone understood they were part of something bigger than themselves; the quest for Excellence in horsemanship. It was a great privilege to even be a part of that, let alone at the highest levels. Following WWII, yes, nationalistic pride figured in there prominently. This began after all as a competition by and for military officers. Toughness and respect went without saying.

I believe that modern society’s pandering to, dare I say active promotion of hypersensitivity, anxiety syndromes, self-absorption, victimhood real or imagined as a primary identity, and cosseting in mental “safe spaces” or “comfort zones” is the real culprit in the slow downgrading of American equestrianism. The Greatest Generation charged through a storm of hot lead on the beaches of Normandy and Guadalcanal at 18 years old; today’s juniors are unhinged by “mean tweets!”

The last few days I’ve spent at a large recognized regional show and watched eq. horses, bored and sour, climb over the fences wringing their tails with their ears pinned. I’ve watched riders pull rails jumping 2’ 9". The jumps for many divisions seemed even lower than they were last year. It seems a small minority of the H/J population can now be expected to handle even 3’? In the heyday of mean, nasty ol’ George, that was at least the height for everyone but small ponies! All horses and adults jumped 3’ 6" and most made it look easy.

There is nothing wrong with riding at the recreational levels; it’s where most people top out and enjoy the sport. But let’s not kid ourselves that Excellence on the International stage is going to be returning any time soon. I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

A couple of things: Even back in the heydey of “nasty ol’ George” there were excellent trainers who did not yell at thier students, throw dirt in their mouths, or deliberately put students in situations where they knew the horse/rider could not succeed at the task. I’ve been reading his book and one of the biggest issues I have with him is when he deliberately sets up jumps that he knows will cause a horse to fall because he wants to “teach the rider a lesson.” Seriously wrong.

Sure, riding has changed from the way it used to be (big fences in divisions) but that’s because the money is in the lower levels. Certainly it’s the case with eventing, where there are now multiple divisions where the fences are basically cross rails. As more people ride and want to compete, the divisions expanded to accomodate them.

There are plenty of top US riders on the international circuit. Many of them now train in Europe. Styles change. Now we have a generation of riders who only use a crest release. Is that really a legacy?

[Peggy]

Arguing on the basis of negative evidence (e.g. I never saw him do it, therefore he never did it) has limited applicability. It can work if there are two clear choices. E.g. you are asked to bring in Copper the chestnut horse. There are two chestnut horses in the field, one with a blaze and one without. You catch the closer one and text back to the barn to ask if it’s Copper. Person asks if it has a blaze and when you say no, they know which horse you have and that it’s Copper bc he doesn’t have a blaze. This would not work if neither horse had a blaze, or if there were three chestnut horses, two of which didn’t have blazes.

[BigMama1]

@Crashing Boar

A digression not concerning sexual abuse, but relating to instruction now considered “too harsh.”

Up-thread are several lamentations that our show jumpers are no longer No. 1 in the world, wondering if the American Jumping Style which peaked in the 80’s is now passe’. Reasons given are different kinds of horses, courses, etc. and are all valid topics of discussion.

However, I’d like to just throw out one other observation:

Maybe we’re too mentally fragile today and less committed to train as hard as was common then.

People who came up in those old days, particularly without tons of money, and rode with exacting sticklers like Victor Hugo-Vidal, George, Bert deNemethy and various of the old Ft. Riley trainers, (or Bruce Davidson’s barn on the eventing side) were not raised by today’s helicopter parenting style with self-esteem building as a priority. Instead, it was “Stand & Deliver!” No one cared how you “feel,” just EXECUTE! Parents weren’t hovering and mouthing postmodern psychobabble, promoting trained helplessness and mental fragility. No one was telling teens that “words are violence” and you need society’s protection from “uncomfortable thoughts.” And everybody definitely DIDN’T get a trophy. You had to work as hard at riding as everything else and EARN success and respect from both teachers and peers. Even if you were filthy rich, nothing was “given.”

Schoolteachers brooked no backtalk, parents backed up adults in authority, and no excuses were made for poor performance in school. Today every sub-par performer gets a Dx “label” and some excuse for either acting out or flunking out, and believe me that has not improved our workforce! Equestrian sport of the time must be seen in that context.

Riding over fences was an elite sport partaken in by probably 1/100th of the 1% (still is!) and at the levels of Big Eq and the road to Grand Prix, lame excuses would get you summarily dismissed. Just like in a good private school, the default was to show up neat, clean and appropriately turned out, be respectful and quiet and try your absolute best, more out of respect for the sport itself than even the personality of the instructor. Everyone understood they were part of something bigger than themselves; the quest for Excellence in horsemanship. It was a great privilege to even be a part of that, let alone at the highest levels. Following WWII, yes, nationalistic pride figured in there prominently. This began after all as a competition by and for military officers. Toughness and respect went without saying.

I believe that modern society’s pandering to, dare I say active promotion of hypersensitivity, anxiety syndromes, self-absorption, victimhood real or imagined as a primary identity, and cosseting in mental “safe spaces” or “comfort zones” is the real culprit in the slow downgrading of American equestrianism. The Greatest Generation charged through a storm of hot lead on the beaches of Normandy and Guadalcanal at 18 years old; today’s juniors are unhinged by “mean tweets!”

The last few days I’ve spent at a large recognized regional show and watched eq. horses, bored and sour, climb over the fences wringing their tails with their ears pinned. I’ve watched riders pull rails jumping 2’ 9". The jumps for many divisions seemed even lower than they were last year. It seems a small minority of the H/J population can now be expected to handle even 3’? In the heyday of mean, nasty ol’ George, that was at least the height for everyone but small ponies! All horses and adults jumped 3’ 6" and most made it look easy.

There is nothing wrong with riding at the recreational levels; it’s where most people top out and enjoy the sport. But let’s not kid ourselves that Excellence on the International stage is going to be returning any time soon. I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

Utter BS. Anybody who actually has kids or spends time with them today would never use the phrase “generation snowflake.” Believe it or not it is possible for a coach to be demanding, tough, exacting, and to bring out the best in students without humiliating or demeaning them, or without coercing them into a sexual relationship.

[alicen]

@Crashing Boar

I just don’t see Generation Snowflake producing the grit, guts, and resilience to get us there. What it may get us is our overseas economic and strategic rivals arriving to eat our lunch without resistance.

Nah,not to worry. They don’t want our fast food.

[bip]

If anyone is a snowflake, it’s the ISWG folks who cannot deal with the fact that he wasn’t who they thought he was.

[Toblersmom]

Once upon a time when I was looking into this whole mess I found guidelines that had been formulated by SafeSport regarding sanctions/punishments. I can’t find it again but it said something to the effect of “The highest sanction of a lifetime ban should be reserved for those cases where:” Followed by a bullet-point list that I don’t recall in any detail. Does anyone know where that is? I don’t want to misquote any details but it made it pretty darn clear that a lifetime ban wouldn’t be handed out for things like giving kids unnecessarily lengthy pats on the tushy to “check position,” one-off offenses decades ago, clearly consensual May-December flirtations, etc.

[omare]

Isnt some aspect of developing young riders the huge cost of showing in the US as compared to other countries and the escalating cost- hence sponsors required- to have the best horses? I though even mcclain ward who certainly knows how to make a horse commented on the difficulty of buying /getting ones hands on the top elite horses. Plus as others have noted t1he top jumpers now are blooded and riding styles seem to have merged a bit.(Finally as some else noted there are top us riders in the top 10 internationally- but they are incredibly competitive and expensive horses at the top.)

[vineyridge]

@YankeeDuchess

Based on your interpretation of what she was saying, I agree with you.

But the story was relayed in support of her statement that she was horrified with the procedures and process of SafeSport. If BNT was unjustly convicted in criminal court, and SafeSport says the conviction translates into a ban, I fail to see how this reflects poorly on SafeSport at all. With “criminal disposition” cases, they do not investigate. Under your interpretation, it does not make sense to use that story as a criticism of SafeSport.

I think that what she was trying to say would be something like this:

He was wrongly convicted 20 years ago and there have been no other complaints against him in the judicial system since then. Even if he wasn’t wrongly convicted, he’s shown himself to have been rehabilitated. It’s wrong to permanently ban someone with one conviction 20 years ago without some evidence that he/she is a current danger.

Of course, the poster can’t know if he’s actually led a blameless life for the past 20 years.

[anon6923113]

I know I asked this earlier on this thread and on the RG one… and it’s probably already been answered. But what is the official policy of IEA with respect to Safe Sport?

I ask because this whole discussion of the “exonerated” individual (:rolleyes:) that came up a few pages ago who has been banned by Safe Sport, but who has video evidence proving their innocence (:rolleyes::rolleyes:) seems to have come up in relation to Tom Navarro. The poster who started this whole train has not named who it is they were talking about… but the comment seemed to be about him.

Anyway… it seems that there is still some sort of “team practice” happening at River Chase on a weekly basis (per their calendar). But George Mason is no longer affiliating their program with that farm… so one can only assume the team is the IEA team that he started last fall.

How is this continuing? He is no longer pending appeal on the Safe Sport list. He has a conviction. Anyone know anything g about this? I’m sorry for the poor kids who want to ride and do these shows and be part of a team… but honestly… how in the world can this continue on (a guy banned by Safe Sport coaching an IEA team)?!?

Am I missing something? Very odd.

[Midge]

@bip

If anyone is a snowflake, it’s the ISWG folks who cannot deal with the fact that he wasn’t who they thought he was.

And Rob Gage. ISWG does not mean ‘I think the system is flawed’. It means, ‘I think George is innocent.’ Full stop. Even George’s statement doesn’t say, “I didn’t do it.” Or “Safe Sport has a flawed system”.

If you are standing with George, or Rob, you are standing with child molesters. I think if a lot of these people looked onto their hearts, they could see the truth. These people are skilled manipulators. GM has had people roll in the dirt. He has thrown dirt in people’s faces. And people took it. And more people looked the other way. And other people chuckled in that, ‘That’s George.’ way. If that dirt causes an injury, he could be charged with assault. If he does this in front of an attentive audience, what does he do in private?

[Gainer]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I know I asked this earlier on this thread and on the RG one… and it’s probably already been answered. But what is the official policy of IEA with respect to Safe Sport?

I ask because this whole discussion of the “exonerated” individual (:rolleyes:) that came up a few pages ago who has been banned by Safe Sport, but who has video evidence proving their innocence (:rolleyes::rolleyes:) seems to have come up in relation to Tom Navarro. The poster who started this whole train has not named who it is they were talking about… but the comment seemed to be about him.

It was definitely about him. I suspect the poster is his current wife, based on the way it was written. Since she’s only been around a short while, I don’t see how she could have any personal knowledge of what happened 20 years ago. Anyone that believes he’s innocent is a fool living in an alternate reality.

Insofar as the IEA team, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he’s doing it in spite of the SS ruling. Would love to know what the process would be going forward to report it.

Also, in no way, shape or form would I consider him a BNT.

[LexInVA]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I know I asked this earlier on this thread and on the RG one… and it’s probably already been answered. But what is the official policy of IEA with respect to Safe Sport?

I ask because this whole discussion of the “exonerated” individual (:rolleyes:) that came up a few pages ago who has been banned by Safe Sport, but who has video evidence proving their innocence (:rolleyes::rolleyes:) seems to have come up in relation to Tom Navarro. The poster who started this whole train has not named who it is they were talking about… but the comment seemed to be about him.

Anyway… it seems that there is still some sort of “team practice” happening at River Chase on a weekly basis (per their calendar). But George Mason is no longer affiliating their program with that farm… so one can only assume the team is the IEA team that he started last fall.

How is this continuing? He is no longer pending appeal on the Safe Sport list. He has a conviction. Anyone know anything g about this? I’m sorry for the poor kids who want to ride and do these shows and be part of a team… but honestly… how in the world can this continue on (a guy banned by Safe Sport coaching an IEA team)?!?

Am I missing something? Very odd.

There is no IEA team there for this year’s competition calendar, according to the official IEA listing, and as SafeSport is required for IEA as of next year and he is ineligible for SafeSport certification, there won’t be one with his name or business attached to it in the future. Two teams were previously listed there under FEI Dressage judge Kim Murphy, but she apparently isn’t there anymore and is working up in Maryland.

[dannyboy]

originally posted by Gainer

Also, in no way, shape or form would I consider him a BNT.

OMG!! UR MEEN!!! (but accurate)

[roseymare]

So here goes speculation. I am speculating that the video “proof” was about the victim admitting some “culpability” Wasn’t allowed because the adult is still the adult. More victim blaming.