George Morris on the SS list

[Cat_Tap]

We should not get Vineyridge banned. It is safer to let her express her views here on Coth rather than IRL. Of course it is quite possible her beliefs are shared in Mississippi.

It is impossible for me to picture, understand what life is like with such beliefs.

[ladyj79]

@Cat Tap

We should not get Vineyridge banned. It is safer to let her express her views here on Coth rather than IRL. Of course it is quite possible her beliefs are shared in Mississippi.

It is impossible for me to picture, understand what life is like with such beliefs.

Let’s not denigrate the people of an entire state because of one jackass.

[vineyridge]

@Soaponarope

Yes, I have. When scholars read the WPA interviews with formerly enslaved people they take into account several issues. For example, the time lapse between the end of slavery and the time the interviews were conducted in the twentieth century is an issue. The interviews record the memories of elderly people who are remembering their childhood or youth in slavery. Not only is the time lapse an issue, but elderly people in general tend to idealize their childhood. As well, the WPA interviews were done obviously before the Civil Rights movement and there was clearly an imbalance of power between interviewer, subject, and audience.

In no way do the WPA interviews support your claim that slavery was in any way a benevolent institution. That position is repugnant.

In other words, if you don’t agree with actual witness testimony, you find reasons to discount it. I never said that slavery was a benevolent institution; what I do think is that the WPA interviews show that it was overall not as awful as abolitionist propaganda paints it.

[Tiramit]

For the purposes of our discussion here, why not say that if a person’s age is considered too immature to legally drink, vote, or serve in the military, then she or he is too immature for a sexual relationship with an adult.

When society decides that under 18 years old is fine to go into battle, vote, and have sex with adults, we can revisit the discussion. Until then, it’s a case closed discussion. It’s against the law.

[vineyridge]

@Albion

Best description I ever read of vineyridge was that they were “straight out of an undiscovered Faulkner manuscript.” Which seems pretty accurate, based on several of the last few posts.

PS Viney: if you actually studied history as hard as you’d like us to believe, you’d know that marriageable age had a lot more to do with class & geographical location than puberty. 13 year olds have never been particularly well-equipped to bear children, as the death rates of mothers & children would tell you. Margaret Beaufort - Henry VII’s mother - is a classic example. The fact that’s her age at delivery was well-remarked upon (since she was THIRTEEN when she gave birth) gives a great indication it wasn’t ~normal~, even in the 15th century among upper classes in England.

And don’t forget Henry IV and Mary Bohun.

[Angela_Freda]

@vineyridge

In other words, if you don’t agree with actual witness testimony, you find reasons to discount it. I never said that slavery was a benevolent institution; what I do think is that the WPA interviews show that it was overall not as awful as abolitionist propaganda paints it.

:eek:

[erinmeri]

Back to the topic at hand…

Is anyone else hearing rumors that TIEC took down the George Morris Arena sign and changed the name on their website? On the website I see it listed as Tryon Stadium Ring 5. Can anyone confirm or does anyone have more details?

Sounds like a quiet change of tune since last week.

[Texarkana]

Hey Viney, I wanted to say it while I still can-- thanks in advance for getting this thread closed.

[vineyridge]

@Tiramit

For the purposes of our discussion here, why not say that if a person’s age is considered too immature to legally drink, vote, or serve in the military, then she or he is too immature for a sexual relationship with an adult.

When society decides that under 18 years old is fine to go into battle, vote, and have sex with adults, we can revisit the discussion. Until then, it’s a case closed discussion. It’s against the law.

try reading this conversation.com article:
https://theconversation.com/child-marriage-is-still-legal-in-the-us-88846

[caffeinated]

@vineyridge

try reading this conversation.com article:
https://theconversation.com/child-marriage-is-still-legal-in-the-us-88846

Viney - Just stop. Stop. STAHHHHP.

[Ghazzu]

@vineyridge

try reading this conversation.com article:

Try entering the 21st century. It’s advanced quite a bit since the 19th…

[smoofox]

@vineyridge

In other words, if you don’t agree with actual witness testimony, you find reasons to discount it. I never said that slavery was a benevolent institution; what I do think is that the WPA interviews show that it was overall not as awful as abolitionist propaganda paints it.

And once again, viney manages to astound me - and that is not an easy thing to do. Viney, I am not sure if your intent is merely to derail any thread you are in or simply to educate us low life idiots Out Here. You make it very obvious that you feel you are intellectually superior to everyone - so why do you post here? You love to present yourself as this great sage - in history, horse breeding, politics, whatever the topic of the current thread is… I am not sure why you lower yourself to make use of these environs to lecture and sneer.

Mary Bohun? She had her first child at 14… even though she was supposed to not consummate her marriage until she was 16. Even back in the 1300s, this was not thought of as ideal/normal.

This thread does not need to be closed - just tidied up.

---

If GM is not communicating, I hope he has someone with him to keep an eye on him…

[ladyj79]

I have no doubts George isn’t sitting in a dark corner chewing his fingernails in worry, he’s 100% at some wealthy benefactor’s home as private trainer and honoured guest.

I am “amused” though that Robert Dover seems to have deleted his public comments of support and moved everything to the Super Adventure Club pages

[LaurieB]

@vineyridge

My thoughts on said stallion have to do, in part, with the fact which I just looked up, that he was never ranked in the top 100 eventing stallions in the world as far back as the WBFSH ranks stallions on their website, and they do include TB stallions. It only takes a couple of FEI top level progeny with points or a larger number of progeny with points competing at the lower FEI levels to be ranked. I went back as far as 2009.

Please. Just. Stop.

Your views on Thoroughbreds in general, and this stallion/owner in particular, are ill-informed and just plain wrong. There’s no defense for your nastiness, so stop trying to make us believe that there is.

[enjoytheride]

Slavery “not that bad”

[YankeeDuchess]

@BigMama1

Actually what you said (and what people rightfully objected to) is that slaves brought to the US were “lucky.”

And were you the person who suggested that the deserved to be slaves because they were the ones “dumb enough” to get caught by the slave traders?

Regarding the well-respected TB stallion and his owner / breeder, your thoughts seem to be both hypocritical and irrelevant since IIRC you have said you have exactly zero experience with breeding TBs yourself.

As for the fact that you think kids are fair game sexually once they hit puberty, and that a 13 or 14-year-old isn’t child…well I hope you aren’t a parent because God help your kids.

Yoh may think you are defending yourself but all you are doing is exposing more clearly to others just how vile and twisted your thinking is. COTH should not be a place that tolerates such disgusting sentiments.

Most of what Viney says I strongly disagree with. However, she should not be banned since declining to ban people with opinions different from ours is a major element that distinguishes this forum from ISWG, etc.

Shockingly, I would like to agree with a tiny bit.

In the post above, there is a reference to slaves being “caught” by “slave traders”. This creates in my mind a picture of white European men going into the African bush and physically capturing Africans, then taking them to a port and putting them on a ship, or selling them at the port as slaves.

Slavery has existed for most of human history and across many continents. My vague understanding of the African slave trade was that warring ethnic groups within African would attempt to subjugate each other, and those on the losing side who were not killed were then the slaves of the victors. In other words that the initial enslavement was African on African slavery. The victorious initial slave owners could either keep the slaves as slaves, or sell them to white Europeans at a port.

If the alternative to being a slave owned by a white person in America was being a slave owned by an African in Africa, is it really inconceivable that the slave on a Southern plantation was better off than a slave in Africa?

Slavery is horrible, always and everywhere. My point, I guess, is that I suspect it is forbidden to say that the original enslavement of Africans was generally by other Africans. Is it true that most of the African slaves brought to America were enslaved by Europeans hunting them down and “capturing” them in the bush?

[RainWeasley]

I’m super curious about this tb breeder/stallion thing now…

[Capall]

Many Native American tribes also had slaves. The reason that Africans were brought to the Americas for slaves in the first place is because the native peoples of this land were almost wiped out because of the diseases the Europeans brought with them, and because the Native people here were not used to the kind of labor that the African slaves were used to. African slaves were immune to European diseases and used to the work. They were not treated any better or worse wherever they were. Slavery is slavery. It doesn’t matter who enslaved people or how, it doesn’t make one way better than the other. I liked Ghazzu’s point about drowning in manure vs. treacle. The end result is you drowned.

My sources: An undergrad degree in Anthropology with a specialization in archaeology, and many classes taken for my degree which focused on the history of the US, Mexico, Central and South Americas. I did an in-depth paper about the Moche people and their practices and studied the Aztecs and Mayans as well. I also took almost enough classes to get a minor in Latin American History, but at that point I just wanted to graduate

Ok, To make this sort of related to the topic, imagine changing “African slave” to “underage sex slave” and see where the narrative goes. It ain’t pretty.

[dannyboy]

Most Africans were initially captured by other Africans and yes, slavery existed in Africa. Europeans/Americans didn’t go around beating the bushes for them. However, the demand for large-scale amounts of slave labor was largely fueled by European or American markets.

You might have been better off in US than in Africa or in the Caribbean - if you got lucky - but being worked to death or beaten to death is pretty much the same anywhere and if could happen to any slave anywhere at any time - whether here or in Africa, or ancient Rome, for that matter.

That’s the true horror of slavery. You have no agency of any kind. You are totally at the mercy of others, whether you live or die, learn to serve at table, or get tortured to death. (Crucifixion was a popular punishment for recalcitrant slaves in Ancient Rome)

And now can we leave this subject alone?

[Denali6298]

Guys if you don’t want the thread to go off topic about slavery stop commenting on what viny says and ignore her.