George Morris on the SS list

[Keep_it_Simple]

@oneequestrienne

Is that information directly from Safesport? I’m not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand your source for the above. My involvement with Safesport didn’t go that far so I wouldn’t know for sure but never heard anything about a “pre-hearing conference”. Certainly doesn’t mean there wasn’t one as my testimony wasn’t needed.

It is from personal experience.
I guess I am in a small club that have had the privilege of experiencing it first hand.

[Ghazzu]

@Keep it Simple

Hearings are NOT done in person. They are done through video conferencing.

So the subpoenas are for video conferencing?

[Denali6298]

So despite the rules of arbitration stating arbitration will occur within 5 days but no more than 10 it goes beyond that? And the arbitrator has 15 days to release the decision. Business days that is.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Ghazzu

So the subpoenas are for video conferencing?

There are no subpoenas. Testifying is voluntary.

I believe the talk about JAMS and subpoena was presented as a hypothetical.

[Ghazzu]

@Keep it Simple

There are no subpoenas. Testifying is voluntary.

I believe the talk about JAMS and subpoena was presented as a hypothetical.

Ah. Thank you for clarifying that.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Denali6298

So despite the rules of arbitration stating arbitration will occur within 5 days but no more than 10 it goes beyond that? And the arbitrator has 15 days to release the decision. Business days that is.

Rules of arbitration state 5 days for the Responding party /accused to say they want an arbitration hearing. Interim hearing timeline is different

[Denali6298]

@Keep it Simple

Rules of arbitration state 5 days for the Responding party /accused to say they want an arbitration hearing. Interim hearing timeline is different

I was referring to 5-10 days for the arbitration after the pre-conference hearing. Or final one if the arbitrator wants another one.

I appreciate your posts clarifying all of this and I’m shocked Monday’s off can sometimes fly as reasonable availability.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Denali6298

I was referring to 5-10 days for the arbitration after the pre-conference hearing. Or final one if the arbitrator wants another one.

Sorry, I misunderstood.
They do their best to schedule within the time frame, however there are not a lot of Mondays in a 5-10 day timeframe. I wish that was a joke, but it isn’t. If witnesses are equestrians (professionals), not man are willing to give up income-producing days to testify.
SafeSport met every deadline and was ready to proceed. The other side delayed, delayed and delayed and once a date was picked, they asked for another extension.

[Denali6298]

@Keep it Simple

Sorry, I misunderstood.
They do their best to schedule within the time frame, however there are not a lot of Mondays in a 5-10 day timeframe. I wish that was a joke, but it isn’t. If witnesses are equestrians (professionals), not man are willing to give up income-producing days to testify.
SafeSport met every deadline and was ready to proceed. The other side delayed, delayed and delayed and once a date was picked, they asked for another extension.

Safe Sport/JAMS should fix that. They are the ones appealing. They should make every effort. Obviously it’s not that important to them.

[FiSk123]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Why yes, thank you for offering!

As a preliminary question, are you affiliated with SafeSport? Can we take your answers to these questions as authoritative statements on how SafeSport works?

Here are my questions:

1. When does the accused see the evidence, including witness statements, that will be used against him?

2. Does the initial investigation or the arbitration proceeding allow for any discovery? [The rules clearly state no, but perhaps you will tell us otherwise.] If not, why not?

3. Does the initial investigation or the arbitration proceeding allow the accused’s attorney to cross-examine any witnesses?

4. Does the arbitrator have any power to compel witnesses to come and testify (i.e., like a subpoena)? If not, how can the accused get a reluctant witness to testify as to the facts they know–like if the witness says they “don’t want to get involved”?

5. How many SafeSport sanctions have gone to arbitration, and how many of those have been upheld?

Hello @Horsegirl’s Mom - my apologies for the late message! I had written a super-long response that I accidentally deleted and I finally found a bit of free time to re-write a response. I give an in-depth synopsis of my background and connection to SafeSport on post #1412 in Rob Gage’s forum.

I have forwarded each of your questions to a SafeSport media representative that I have worked with in the past. I will post those answers when they become available. I hope you don’t mind if I try to answer your questions now, to the best of my ability.

1. Honestly, this depends. If the responding party cooperates with the Center’s investigation, they are regularly updated about the evidence against them. If they do not cooperate, they are left out of the loop. I provide a few examples in the Rob Gage thread. In other words, if the responding party is cooperative (i.e. comply with the terms of any temporary measures, provide appropriate documents, does not harass witnesses/claimants, etc.), they are told/shown the evidence against them and given the opportunity to provide their own evidence in response.

2. There is no discovery. In my personal opinion, this is due to logistical and financial reasons. Paying an attorney to go through all of the available documents & selecting them for disclosure, discovery deposition, and resolving discovery disputes can be a very time-consuming and expensive procedure.

3. The witnesses can be cross-examined if they agree to be cross-examined. I have worked on several cases in which the witnesses were cross-examined by the responding party’s attorney. I am also aware of a few cases in which the witnesses refused to be cross-examined.

“The Claimant shall be subject to questioning by only the arbitrator unless the Claimant agrees to direct examination and cross-examination by the opposing party.” -SafeSport Code

4. No, they do not have the ability to compel witnesses to testify. IMO this is due to logistical, financial and ethical reasons. The Center is not interested in punishing witnesses, especially survivors of abuse, for not testifying.

5. I will wait for an official response from the Center before posting an exact number. If I do not get a response in a reasonable amount of time, I can calculate it myself (I’ve been keeping a running list since early 2018 - but I’m not sure if it’s fully inclusive. I asked for the following numbers:

of SafeSport sanctions that have been overturned through arbitration

of SafeSport cases that are currently in arbitration

of SafeSport cases that have gone to arbitration

Breakdown of those that were under “criminal disposition” vs. non-CD

My apologies for the late responses, @YankeeDuchess. Would you mind putting all of your most recent questions in a list? I keep getting behind on the forum and I want to make sure I’m able to either answer all of your questions or forward them to the Center ASAP.

[BLBGP]

@Virginia Horse Mom

On a somewhat unrelated but interesting note regarding much of the last several PAGES and PAGES of this thread… just finished watching “The Tale” on HBO.

Coincidentally, I have some ties to the area the author was from, and some of the background sporting communities related to this story.

Anyone else watch it yet? I don’t know that I will recommend it as it is INCREDIBLY triggering. I don’t quite know how I feel about the movie at this time.

Regardless… it’s sort of bizarre how close some of the real life stuff behind this movie is to George Morris. The former Olympian “running” coach in the movie won a Gold at the 1960 Olympics… George Morris won Silver there. The movie theoretically happened at a “Carolina” horse farm. But the real life Jennifer Fox was from Narberth, PA. With a bit of piecing together different parts of the story… it’s possible to make a very good guess as to who the real life Bill Allen and Mrs. G are. Both are in their eighties now…

I cross referenced the Safe Sport list to see if the person it seems like the Bill Allen character was based upon is on it (he was an Olympic athlete and has been a major coach in his sport for decades). The guy isn’t on the list. It’s sort of odd… if the story from the movie is true… there are very very very likely more victims out there. I hope Safe Sport is investigating the person the movie seems to point to.

And it makes you wonder about the real life Mrs. G as well. It’s sad and really disturbing to think about. But the events in the movie are horrific.

I watched it when it came out and it is an incredible depiction of grooming through a child’s and adult’s eyes. I was especially jolted by the part (spoiler alert until the end of this paragraph) where the adult Jennifer remembers herself as a cocky older mature teen, then sees a picture of what she really looked like when it started, and the actress playing her as a child changes entirely.

But I’m from the other coast, so I don’t know who the people you mention could be. PM me?

[Denali6298]

@FiSk123 Thanks for getting the numbers! In your experience, when do you think we will know the results of GHM’s appeal? Best guess I mean.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

Hey, thanks Keep it Simple and Fisk for the real information being provided here. It feels like a lot of questions are being answered, and I appreciate the efforts to get even more info. In my mind, it helps SafeSport’s mission to be as transparent as possible about how the process works and the results being obtained.

I think a lot of these questions have been spurred by the information put out by Bonnie Nevin (?) and others who may be allied with her. When she stated there was a 90% overturn rate, that is certainly a statistic that makes one sit up and pay attention. As a trial lawyer myself, I’m used to the idea that we always want to preserve our credibility, since getting good results from the judge depends on it. It was hard for me to conclude that Ms. Nevin was just totally making stuff up. But sad to say, maybe that’s the case.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Bold MooMoo

Who is this FISK that you keep calling upon to back up your facts? Do you know them in real life or just who they say they are here. I would like to hear from them again, about 75 pages later.

It’s FiSk123, who has a figure skating background and seems to know an awful lot about SafeSport. She pops up now and again with knowledge of the procedures and statistics based on the SafeSport database.

 I don’t know who she is, perhaps a journalist, but purely based on her posts I assign a huge amount of credibility to her, and am always interested in her input.

[Denali6298]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Hey, thanks Keep it Simple and Fisk for the real information being provided here. It feels like a lot of questions are being answered, and I appreciate the efforts to get even more info. In my mind, it helps SafeSport’s mission to be as transparent as possible about how the process works and the results being obtained.

I think a lot of these questions have been spurred by the information put out by Bonnie Nevin (?) and others who may be allied with her. When she stated there was a 90% overturn rate, that is certainly a statistic that makes one sit up and pay attention. As a trial lawyer myself, I’m used to the idea that we always want to preserve our credibility, since getting good results from the judge depends on it. It was hard for me to conclude that Ms. Nevin was just totally making stuff up. But sad to say, maybe that’s the case.

I’m glad to read your coming around. Not sure why you would take statistics and statements as fact without research though. I think the push back you’ve seen on these threads is because many here don’t believe the rantings of Nevin. It’s not maybe the case, it is the case. Why do you put so much stock in what she says? Because she’s a lawyer? Peruse your state bar ethics committee decisions to see why that maybe a bad idea.

[Denali6298]

@YankeeDuchess

It’s FiSk123, who has a figure skating background and seems to know an awful lot about SafeSport. She pops up now and again with knowledge of the procedures and statistics based on the SafeSport database.

I don’t know who she is, perhaps a journalist, but purely based on her posts I assign a huge amount of credibility to her, and am always interested in her input.

If you have followed along you would know they are a journalist with figure skating ties. No gender has been mentioned.

[oneequestrienne]

@Keep it Simple

It is from personal experience.
I guess I am in a small club that have had the privilege of experiencing it first hand.

Thanks for your response. Sorry you had to go through it all.

[BITSA]

@YankeeDuchess

My post was asking whether court enforced subpoenas of non-parties to a dispute would technically be available in the JAMS arbitration part, if the law authorizing SafeSport were suitably changed. My reading of the excerpt of the FAA act provided by BITSA indicated that court enforced subpoena power would be available to JAMS.

It was an honest question.

Perhaps someone else will answer it.

My take is that it would be enforceable based on what the arbitration agreement says and if it specifies what rules are to be followed. I just got off the phone for a scheduling setting conference with a JAMS judge, and he consistently referred back to the arbitration agreement the employee signed for procedural constraints and rules to be followed through the discovery process. Not that that is the be all end all, but as a matter of contract, it makes sense to me.

I used that section of the FAA because the complainant is not a party to the SafeSport case (much like the victim in a criminal case isn’t the party).

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@Denali6298

I’m glad to read your coming around. Not sure why you would take statistics and statements as fact without research though. I think the push back you’ve seen on these threads is because many here don’t believe the rantings of Nevin.

Well, that’s why I’ve been asking for information, and it appears we are finally about to get some! The kind of statistics we want are not in the public domain.

You seem to think everyone should just take at face value SafeSport’s cheery marketing about what a great job they’re doing. I tend to wear my “skeptical” hat most of the time (occupational hazard), and it’s funny the stuff you find out when you ask persistent questions.

The 45 day thing is a perfect example. You took it as gospel and chided me for not just accepting SafeSport’s stated timeframe. Well, now it looks like that timeframe is more fantasy than reality, doesn’t it? (Not saying that’s SS’s fault; it’s just a fact).

[Denali6298]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Well, that’s why I’ve been asking for information, and it appears we are finally about to get some! The kind of statistics we want are not in the public domain.

You seem to think everyone should just take at face value SafeSport’s cheery marketing about what a great job they’re doing. I tend to wear my “skeptical” hat most of the time (occupational hazard), and it’s funny the stuff you find out when you ask persistent questions.

The 45 day thing is a perfect example. You took it as gospel and chided me for not just accepting SafeSport’s stated timeframe. Well, now it looks like that timeframe is more fantasy than reality, doesn’t it? (Not saying that’s SS’s fault; it’s just a fact).

I incorrectly assumed that you as a trial lawyer realize continuances are a thing. You asked what is the time frame, SS lays out 45 days but like any process involving lawyers it can go longer.

I don’t look at SS cheery marketing and base my decision. I look at the actual rules and have emailed them and the coordinator for USEF with my questions. I also have been aware of this problem in our sport for a very long time. Unfortunately it has never been my story to tell.

I also recognize the likes of Nevin for who she is. I also bounce my thoughts off people I’m friends with IRL who practice appellate law and often take pro bono cases for people who couldn’t otherwise afford an attorney and are languishing in jail.

I will take responsibility for making the assumption that people dig as much as I do.

I think our efforts would be better spent tightening up the time frame rules for trainers who “are only available on Mondays” as keep it simple pointed out. They ask for the appeal and then say “oh it’s not a Monday.” GTFO with that.