George Morris on the SS list

[Denali6298]

@Roser123

First, I have to say that I’m very sorry for anyone who’s been a victim of sexual assault, and I applaud your bravery in sharing your stories here and especially of being willing to testify against your abuser.
Second, I was recently on the jury in a sexual assault case, and I disagree with your contention that “Lawyers want witnesses on the stand so they can cut them down, destroy their credibility, and poke holes in their story.” That was not at all my experience, and if the defense attorney had acted in such a way (in my case, anyway), it would have been to the extreme detriment of his client.

Well clearly she’s lying then because it didn’t happen in the one case you witnessed. There are a million public stories like @Jealoushe. Get a grip. Your one experience doesn’t wipe history.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@Roser123

Right, but part of helping victims is ensuring that their case won’t be overturned on appeal.
From my perspective, that’s what HLMom and YankeeDuchess are trying to get at.
I really don’t think you’re on opposing sides of this issue as much as you think you are.

Right. And we’ve gone down a rabbit hole about compelling victim testimony, and I understand there are agonizing issues there–the same issues sex crime prosecutors face in court.

But the question of how to gather relevant testimony does not solely apply to the victims. What about other witnesses? Suppose Trainer X fondles Mary during a lesson. When Mary makes a SafeSport claim, Trainer X denies it happened. Sally was in the lesson and saw the whole thing, but she “doesn’t want to get involved” because she doesn’t want to ruffle feathers.

As it stands, neither SafeSport nor Mary has any way to require Sally to tell what she saw. And with it just being Mary’s word versus Trainer X’s word, it could be hard to make the preponderance standard in front of the arbitrator.

Is that just tough luck for Mary?

[roseymare]

@dags

You act like the “win” is some blue ribbon… I thought the win was getting the accused out of the sport so they could no longer assault minors, thereby creating more victims?

But forcing the victims to testify doesn’t guarantee a win

[Denali6298]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Right. And we’ve gone down a rabbit hole about compelling victim testimony, and I understand there are agonizing issues there–the same issues sex crime prosecutors face in court.

But the question of how to gather relevant testimony does not solely apply to the victims. What about other witnesses? Suppose Trainer X fondles Mary during a lesson. When Mary makes a SafeSport claim, Trainer X denies it happened. Sally was in the lesson and saw the whole thing, but she “doesn’t want to get involved” because she doesn’t want to ruffle feathers.

As it stands, neither SafeSport nor Mary has any way to require Sally to tell what she saw. And with it just being Mary’s word versus Trainer X’s word, it could be hard to make the preponderance standard in front of the arbitrator.

Is that just tough luck for Mary?

If Sally provides testimony to safe sport and then declines in arbitration I bet Mary has something to do with it. But alas you are creating hypotheticals that have not happened and probably never happen to support your view of subpoenas. Can we live in reality for once?

[Roser123]

@Denali6298

Well clearly she’s lying then because it didn’t happen in the one case you witnessed. There are a million public stories like @Jealoushe. Get a grip. Your one experience doesn’t wipe history.

Of course it doesn’t wipe history, but I DO think that people are a bit more evolved these days, and going forward I think it’s important for victims to understand that.
There was quite a lengthy voir dire process, and no one who would have bought into the defense attorney victim shaming would have made it onto that jury, IMHO.

[Denali6298]

@Roser123

Of course it doesn’t wipe history, but I DO think that people are a bit more evolved these days, and going forward I think it’s important for victims to understand that.
There was quite a lengthy void dire process, and no one who would have bought into a defense attorney victim shaming would have made it onto that jury, IMHO.

Oh please write a pamphlet for victims to make them feel better and about how they should feel. Please write a how to on how to testify and tell their story. Are you high?

@Jealoushe @Keep it Simple @oneequestrienne your struggles with testifying are invalid because Roser123 saw a trial where the victim didn’t get grilled and ripped to shreds.

I got ripped to shreds on the stand. No people aren’t that evolved.

God I wish I was you and didn’t know the horrors of sexual abuse. Must be nice.

[Roser123]

@Denali6298

Oh please write a pamphlet for victims to make them feel better and about how they should feel. Please write a how to on how to testify and tell their story. Are you high?

Am I high? No, but I’ve often thought that it must be after 5 o’clock wherever you are. 🙄

ETA: Let me know when you’re done adding to your post. So ridiculous.

[Midge]

@Denali6298

Oh please write a pamphlet for victims to make them feel better and about how they should feel. Please write a how to on how to testify and tell their story. Are you high?

Honestly, can you just stop with the insults? You’ve been doing more harm than good for pages now. I get that you are angry, righteous, and knowledgeable. But you are also rude, insulting, and offering zero helpful discussion at this point.

Stop. Just stop.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Right. And we’ve gone down a rabbit hole about compelling victim testimony, and I understand there are agonizing issues there–the same issues sex crime prosecutors face in court.

But the question of how to gather relevant testimony does not solely apply to the victims. What about other witnesses? Suppose Trainer X fondles Mary during a lesson. When Mary makes a SafeSport claim, Trainer X denies it happened. Sally was in the lesson and saw the whole thing, but she “doesn’t want to get involved” because she doesn’t want to ruffle feathers.

As it stands, neither SafeSport nor Mary has any way to require Sally to tell what she saw. And with it just being Mary’s word versus Trainer X’s word, it could be hard to make the preponderance standard in front of the arbitrator.

Is that just tough luck for Mary?

If the evidence isn’t strong, the trainer may not be banned. Remenber the lifetime bans are for the most egregious actions, not fondling one person during a. lesson

[ClaraLuisa]

I just want to say that, as a bystanding reader, I greatly appreciate all of the education available through this thread.

And I especially want to thank those brave survivors who have spoken from their experience. You are heroes.

For what my 2 cents is worth, I think everyone here is motivated by concern that SafeSport be as effective as possible. I don’t hear anyone speaking in bad faith. I think tough questions and sometimes painful conflicts are inevitable around issues this charged, and it’s remarkable that the bulk of discussion here has been fact-based and civil.

I hope we can continue to have a discussion which doesn’t become attackative. (Anyone else here remember that old COTHism?)

[Denali6298]

@Midge

Honestly, can you just stop with the insults? You’ve been doing more harm than good for pages now. I get that you are angry, righteous, and knowledgeable. But you are also rude, insulting, and offering zero helpful discussion at this point.

Stop. Just stop.

What insults except the last “are you high” question? And I see that as a valid question. I also posted my response in sincerity since it could help the victims I deal with. So if roser could kindly write something up for me to say or give to the people who call me I would be greatly appreciative.

But seeing as how I highly doubt she will, i interjected sarcasm.

But really if people have tips to help the victims that call me by all means let’s hear em.

[Roser123]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Right. And we’ve gone down a rabbit hole about compelling victim testimony, and I understand there are agonizing issues there–the same issues sex crime prosecutors face in court.

But the question of how to gather relevant testimony does not solely apply to the victims. What about other witnesses? Suppose Trainer X fondles Mary during a lesson. When Mary makes a SafeSport claim, Trainer X denies it happened. Sally was in the lesson and saw the whole thing, but she “doesn’t want to get involved” because she doesn’t want to ruffle feathers.

As it stands, neither SafeSport nor Mary has any way to require Sally to tell what she saw. And with it just being Mary’s word versus Trainer X’s word, it could be hard to make the preponderance standard in front of the arbitrator.

Is that just tough luck for Mary?

Well, I don’t know if it’s just tough luck for Mary, but I don’t see how, or under what guise Sally can be forced to testify.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Denali6298

There you have it folks. I mean WTF. I know I’m an asshole but even my jaw has dropped. The “win” is way more important than the person. I can’t even. The only people needing reminding that it’s not easy for the victim is you and Yankee Duchess.

   I will break my silence to remind Denali that I am a rape victim.  Not date rape or he said/she said but violent, stranger rape one night when I left my office building around midnight.

[Denali6298]

@YankeeDuchess

I will break my silence to remind Denali that I am a rape victim. Not date rape or he said/she said but violent, stranger rape one night when I left my office building around midnight.

I am so sorry. Mine was a violent “thought he was a friend”. What being a victims advocate taught me was it needs to be about the victim. Not every victim finds closure in nailing their perp. Not every victim is strong enough to do that. What every victim has in common is a voice that needs to be heard. People call the phone number, tell their story and just want help dealing with what happened. That’s what I’m trying to get you guys to realize. They all want a voice but not all want a voice in court.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Denali6298

I am so sorry. Mine was a violent “thought he was a friend”. What being a victims advocate taught me was it needs to be about the victim. Not every victim finds closure in nailing their perp. Not every victim is strong enough to do that. What every victim has in common is a voice that needs to be heard. People call the phone number, tell their story and just want help dealing with what happened. That’s what I’m trying to get you guys to realize. They all want a voice but not all want a voice in court.

Mine was a violent complete stranger, not “a violent ‘thought he was a friend’”. Grabbed me from behind in the dark.

I am not interested in hearing “so sorry” from you. My point was you have no business dumping on me for “not knowing what it is like to be a victim.”  Are you going to stop bashing and insulting me now that you know I am a victim of violent rape?

[roseymare]

I am pretty sure that in the case of domestic violence that I sat on the jury for the victim was forced to testify.

She was not found to be believable by my peers in the jury box.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹Had she not been on the stand I think there may have been a different outcome. And while the defense attorney was not openly antagonist to her he did little things to put to the jury that she was lying.

[Denali6298]

@YankeeDuchess

Mine was a violent complete stranger, not “a violent ‘thought he was a friend’”. Grabbed me from behind in the dark.

I am not interested in hearing “so sorry” from you. My point was you have no business dumping on me for “not knowing what it is like to be a victim.” Are you going to stop bashing and insulting me now that you know I am a victim of violent rape?

My point was not everyone is like you or me. We all handle things differently. I was piece of shit for passing judgement on people before I really understood it. Not calling you a POS that’s just how I describe myself. It has got to be about the victims and their comfort level. It’s great you and I can stand up in court. Not everyone can do that. Not everyone wants that. I can’t tell you how many rape victims I’ve talked to that don’t “want to ruin someone’s career.” That’s my point. It doesn’t matter how you or I would handle it. The victims and how they want to handle it matter. The fact that Safe Sport gives them a choice is fine by me. I’m not concerned with the bans so much as I’m concerned with the victims getting a voice and what they need.

So no just because you and I are victims does not give us right to tell other victims what they should do.

[BLBGP]

@roseymare

And while the defense attorney was not openly antagonist to her he did little things to put to the jury that she was lying.

That was my experience on a jury, too, although we found him guilty. The defense attorney was not openly antagonistic, but he was trying to poke holes in her story, steer blame towards her for staying with him in the first place, and attempt to give us reasonable doubt. That’s his job, why else would he question her except to defend the accused?

[roseymare]

@BLBGP

That was my experience on a jury, too, although we found him guilty. The defense attorney was not openly antagonistic, but he was trying to poke holes in her story, steer blame towards her for staying with him in the first place, and attempt to give us reasonable doubt. That’s his job, why else would he question her except to defend the accused?

Exactly that is why I was a bit baffled by the post about how we have moved forward. Maybe I misread it and maybe if it was a particular gruesome case that would be true but by and large witnesses are grilled.

[Denali6298]

@roseymare

Exactly that is why I was a bit baffled by the post about how we have moved forward. Maybe I misread it and maybe if it was a particular gruesome case that would be true but by and large witnesses are grilled.

You didn’t miss read. I’m an ass for reaction to that post. I bow down to your ability to be PC