George Morris on the SS list

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RegentLion

Does anyone know much about other spots that had an “icon” taken down by SS? Specifically, was there a large group defending the actions of the perpetrator as we are seeing with the ISWGM folks?

As posted above, the timing of JS’s ban being lifted is very troubling. I really like that SS keeps details privacy, but an explanation here would be really helpful in understanding why the decision was reversed…

I also really wish there was some statement released by SS on the number of accusers of GM and their ages when the abuse happened. Mostly to get the apologists to stop saying it was just two 17 year olds in “consenting relationships” . ::eyeroll::

I am conflicted I guess about SS not releasing non-identifying details in this specific instance.

@FiSk123 is a poster who periodically weighs in on these discussions, who has extensive background knowledge of Safe Sport in general, and how it has played out in other sports. Their background relates to Figure Skating in particular.

It’s been an ugly issue to confront across multiple sports. And multiple “icons” have fallen. Especially in the world of Gymnastics and Figure Skating. But the pushback with respect to Safe Sport in our community is notable… and ugly.

It’s been mentioned earlier on this thread and others… but the HBO Documentary, At the Heart of Gold, is really enlightening and worth a watch if you want to get a better understanding of how Safe Sport came to be, and why many folks (self included) think we need it.

As as far as how many accusers came out against GM… we actually DON’T have information on that. There is information that is public after a NYT article when the ban was announced in August, that reports Soresi as being the initial person who reported to Safe Sport. Other information reported in that article talks about a young man who ride with GM in the 70’s as a junior, but passed away in the mid 90’s. As far as how many people gave information or personal testimony to Safe Sport investigators though? No one knows. There are other bits and pieces out there on various sites that indicate GMs behavior with underage male students went on for decades. But no one else has publicly stepped forward and claimed to be a victim, or named other victims, or admitted that they provided testimony to Safe Sport investigators. And who can blame them? I certainly don’t.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@RegentLion

Does anyone know much about other spots that had an “icon” taken down by SS? Specifically, was there a large group defending the actions of the perpetrator as we are seeing with the ISWGM folks?

As posted above, the timing of JS’s ban being lifted is very troubling. I really like that SS keeps details privacy, but an explanation here would be really helpful in understanding why the decision was reversed…

I also really wish there was some statement released by SS on the number of accusers of GM and their ages when the abuse happened. Mostly to get the apologists to stop saying it was just two 17 year olds in “consenting relationships” . ::eyeroll::

I am conflicted I guess about SS not releasing non-identifying details in this specific instance.

Richard Callaghan the figure skating coach of Todd Eldredge, Nicole Bobek and Tara Lipinski is banned. I don’t know how the skating world feels. I believe top people in other sports have been banned but I think you would have to ask individuals in that sport. Most of the real world does not know or care who George Morris is. People in the equestrian world may consider him to be God, but that is it. Most people on the street don’t know him and would probably be happy a child molester was punished.

I believe equestrian is the only sport in an uproar about SafeSport.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Honestly… I’m of the opinion after the RG case during the summer and this one that USEF and Safe Sport need to speak up and SPECIFICALLY address the issue of victim shaming and blaming. Anne K still gets hateful comments on her business related Facebook page. There’s one now I think calling her a liar. I saw nasty comments about HR on Facebook just this week, bringing up stuff from when she was a 15 yr old girl that is really unnecessary and personal, and now with all the REALLY ugly commentary out there about Soresi, that there needs to be more done with respect to protecting victims who do come forward.

They are standing by and doing nothing at present, while victims are in fact being bullied on social media. Everyone has seen the comments. And oddly enough… it’s not happening on these forums or HSD where people also post using anonymous handles… Nope… the majority of the victim bullying is happening on Facebook, publicly, with people’s first and last names tied to the ugliness.

The social media tea action to Safe Sport in the equestrian community is an odd phenomenon, for sure.

[Darkwave]

@Keep it Simple

Richard Callaghan the figure skating coach of Todd Eldredge, Nicole Bobek and Tara Lipinski is banned. I don’t know how the skating world feels. I believe top people in other sports have been banned but I think you would have to ask individuals in that sport. Most of the real world does not know or care who George Morris is. People in the equestrian world may consider him to be God, but that is it. Most people on the street don’t know him and would probably be happy a child molester was punished.

I believe equestrian is the only sport in an uproar about SafeSport.

I can speak from my experiences in equestrian and running (USATF) - I have competed at roughly the same level in both - I won ribbons at Devon and Indoors in the Junior Jumper division, and am now a “sub-elite” long distance runner (which means I’m fast enough to win money and be offered free entry and other perks at races, but not fast enough to be sponsored by a shoe company/make a living from running). So I’ve got a decent amount of fairly high level experience in both sports.

There is virtually no outcry about SafeSport in running. It’s literally not on the radar when I discuss it with other runners - I’ve had to explain what Safesport is to very good very serious runners

But I honestly think that it’s due to the fact that children and adults do not interact, train, and compete against each other in running the way they do in equestrian sports.

In horse showing, we’re all at the same shows, and even have combined junior/amateur divisions.

By contrast, in running, kids are generally training with their high school teams, and then their college teams, and racing in those competitions. Sure, you have kids under 18 enter road races from time to time. But, I’m not aware of any situation where you have both adults and kids as part of the same training group - it just doesn’t happen, with perhaps 1-2 rare exceptions. If you’re a kid, you run with your high school or college. Once you’re done with that, then you can move on to one of the adult training groups.

As a USATF member, I get a Safesport notice 1-2 times a year. But it’s never anyone I’ve ever heard of, and doesn’t make an impression. And when I look at the USATF list of SafeSport suspensions - they are all criminal dispositions. None of them appear to be the result of Safesport hearings - they are all outside convictions that were then reported in.

So I think that’s why there’s virtually no outcry in USATF. Not because equestrians somehow get uptight about these things while runners universally believe in and support SafeSport, but rather because it’s just not playing out the same way in the two sports. There’s just not the same presence of minors in non-high school running to begin with, and there’s also no SafeSport hearings to focus on and discuss.

[skydy]

@Impractical Horsewoman

A few hours ago, the Chronicle posted an article on its website (and a link on Facebook) addressing the Morris suspension.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article…morris-hearing

Great article Beth Rasin!

[Jealoushe]

@RainWeasley

I feel like this is a hard stat to verify. The more correct statement would be 87% of those who look at CP and have been caught have offended in real life. It’s likely that quite s lot more look at CP without offending and never being caught with CP, possibly some that just look only once or twice out of curiosity (not that that is okay).

It’s not really more correct if you don’t know where the stat is from.

I’m referring to pedophiles, not just someone who stumbles upon child abuse material.

The stats are a combination from criminal/hospital/therapy records etc in Canada. The stat is 2019 and every bit correct. Yes it is hard to believe, but not really when you understand the psychology of pedophilia.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Agree 100% @Darkwave that there are unusual factors about equestrian sports that result in a blending of age groups. Ironically, there are some positive aspects to the fact that adults and younger people spend so much time together–cross-generational friendships can be great. But it’s also clearly been taken advantage of in very subtle and horrible ways.

But I also sometimes see a mentality among some horse people–even at relatively casual barns–that any type of regulation from outsiders, of any kind, is bad. Not just in regards to SafeSport, but in general.

It’s somewhat sad, too because even though the Morris case involved young men (at least the sexual aspects, not the question of verbal harassment), we are a sport which is predominantly female at the lower levels but which is still often dominated by males in leadership positions or in the prestige they hold. Clearly, having some channel to have harassment addressed should be valuable, given that gendered power imbalance in so many other industries has created a climate of abuse.

[Carolinadreamin]

@mvp

Yes, but I think charlieTBD said just that about Europeans not being slavishly cultish about their top pros.

But to imply, then, that “Europeans, too, would look the other way” about the serious breech of morality we are discussing in this thread is pretty bad. It’s not like Morris stole some pens from work or even did some clever and successful embezzling. To my mind, this is a much worse (and longer-lived) transgression to “look the other way” from.

But maybe charlieTBD can clarify-- Do you Eurotypes have your Harvey Weinsteins, Jo Paternos and George Morrises? Those bad actors who are known but somehow tolerated and allowed to stay in their respective, comfortable positions?

Prince Andrew comes to mind.

[Jealoushe]

@Carolinadreamin'

Prince Andrew comes to mind.

Jimmy Savile

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jonathan-soresi-responds-to-george-morris-safesport-decision

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Well - Soresi has now publicly spoken out. That takes some serious guts.

My account here on the forums is STILL prevented from sharing links. But maybe someone else can pop up and link to the Chronicle report that just came out.

The comments on the Chronicles Facebook page (article is posted there) are piling up QUICKLY. At least several people have attempted to say something supportive to the guy. But some of the rest… wow. Ugly.

[Carolinadreamin]

@Jealoushe

Jimmy Savile

OMG, a true monster.

And to echo the above poster (Virginia Horse mom) yea, some of the comments under the Chronicle’s FB are just shocking.

[roseymare]

why am I reading the fb comments…

but I did chuckle a bit at the one that said something to the effect of “just read a Jilly Cooper novel if you want to know all of this was true”

[charlieTBD]

@Carolinadreamin'

Prince Andrew comes to mind.

This is exactly the kind of comment that makes me roll my eyes. Is he a coach of children in sport? No. Is he a top pro rider which is what the discussion was about? No. How is this comparable? Its not but just mindless attack on anyone who says the culture of the whole sport of hunter seat is a problem in US, not just one man. We all know it is not one man. We all know this culture also contributes to fraud in sales, cheating with drugs, abuse of horses and child. (I edit to say hunters because other horse sports I participate in US are not like a cult).

Why the impulse to attack any person who says the US hero worship of equestrian coaches is a problem? Bad for the sport and bad for the child. Same in children in training for the Olympics on some countries (yes, some in europe in the past, hopefully not anymore). Same with Catholic priesthood. Same culture of strict control and attacking character and reputation of those who speak out. This culture of control and shame drives many responsible parents away as they sense something smells weird and the sport suffers too.

As for the people who say it was ok to sleep with teenagers in the 70s it is never ok for teacher or coach to have sex with a student!! Especially a scholarship student or working student when you control the money. My goodness, who thinks that is ok? Young people should have romantic relationships with peers, not adults in power over them.

[fair_judy]

I think it would be nice if the Chronicle had the same policy on moderating their Facebook presence as we have in the forums. I certainly think that reps knowledgeable and/or working for Safe Sport should have a presence when these issues come out to inform in the Facebook format when these people who have zero idea what the process involves. The best we can do is post ourselves often and with conviction in support of the process. This is the link to the JD public statement on the COTH Facebook page. I’ve commented… as Sarah Pair ( Hochschwender). https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jonathan-soresi-responds-to-george-morris-safesport-decision

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@charlieTBD

As for the people who say it was ok to sleep with teenagers in the 70s it is never ok for teacher or coach to have sex with a student!! Especially a scholarship student or working student when you control the money. My goodness, who thinks that is ok? Young people should have romantic relationships with peers, not adults in power over them.

You know what else is SERIOUSLY getting under my skin? The comments that I’ve seen pointing toward the homosexual aspect of it all, and stating that since homosexuality wasn’t as openly accepted in society back in the late 60’s and 70’s, young teenage boys who thought they might be gay commonly had relationships with older gay men, so that the older men could “show them the ropes” about the lifestyle…

STOP SAYING HORRIBLE STUPID THINGS PEOPLE. Teenage boys and girls who are potentially grappling with sexuality issues should be sorting that out, in a non exploitative manner … at their own pace! And they should be sorting out these issues with their own PEERS. Not having sexual relationships with adult coaches who are completely using and abusing them, and then getting thrown away by that adult as soon a fresh new 13 year old student wanders into the barn who needs “extra coaching.”

It’s pretty obvious that the sub-culture with respect to teenaged boys involved in our sport has been REALLY broken for entirely too long. And it’s pretty obvious George Morris is part of that… he hasn’t exactly publicly modeled what a positive, respectful, loving and committed homosexual relationship with a peer looks like… ever… has he?

[roseymare]

@charlieTBD

This is exactly the kind of comment that makes me roll my eyes. Is he a coach of children in sport? No. Is he a top pro rider which is what the discussion was about? No. How is this comparable? Its not but just mindless attack on anyone who says the culture of the whole sport of hunter seat is a problem in US, not just one man. We all know it is not one man. We all know this culture also contributes to fraud in sales, cheating with drugs, abuse of horses and child. (I edit to say hunters because other horse sports I participate in US are not like a cult).

Why the impulse to attack any person who says the US hero worship of equestrian coaches is a problem? Bad for the sport and bad for the child. Same in children in training for the Olympics on some countries (yes, some in europe in the past, hopefully not anymore). Same with Catholic priesthood. Same culture of strict control and attacking character and reputation of those who speak out. This culture of control and shame drives many responsible parents away as they sense something smells weird and the sport suffers too.

As for the people who say it was ok to sleep with teenagers in the 70s it is never ok for teacher or coach to have sex with a student!! Especially a scholarship student or working student when you control the money. My goodness, who thinks that is ok? Young people should have romantic relationships with peers, not adults in power over them.

I am not sure why you have taken her comment as anti your comment. I thought it was simply a statement that yes other countries do have issues with hero worship of people who are amoral. It was in answer to the post above it.

[Carolinadreamin]

@roseymare

I am not sure why you have taken her comment as anti your comment. I thought it was simply a statement that yes other countries do have issues with hero worship of people who are amoral. It was in answer to the post above it.

Thank you, you said it better than I did!

[Carolinadreamin]

@charlieTBD

This is exactly the kind of comment that makes me roll my eyes. Is he a coach of children in sport? No. Is he a top pro rider which is what the discussion was about? No. How is this comparable? Its not but just mindless attack on anyone who says the culture of the whole sport of hunter seat is a problem in US, not just one man. We all know it is not one man. We all know this culture also contributes to fraud in sales, cheating with drugs, abuse of horses and child. (I edit to say hunters because other horse sports I participate in US are not like a cult).

Why the impulse to attack any person who says the US hero worship of equestrian coaches is a problem? Bad for the sport and bad for the child. Same in children in training for the Olympics on some countries (yes, some in europe in the past, hopefully not anymore). Same with Catholic priesthood. Same culture of strict control and attacking character and reputation of those who speak out. This culture of control and shame drives many responsible parents away as they sense something smells weird and the sport suffers too.

As for the people who say it was ok to sleep with teenagers in the 70s it is never ok for teacher or coach to have sex with a student!! Especially a scholarship student or working student when you control the money. My goodness, who thinks that is ok? Young people should have romantic relationships with peers, not adults in power over them.

You totally misinterpreted my comment. Save your outrage for someone who deserves it.

[oneequestrienne]

FWIW, There is someone (I think a woman but I could be wrong) posting on Twitter @JudgeThree who is very connected to US Figure skating but who also appears to have been inside the h/j world and knows people in US Gymnastics. They seem to know a lot, supports victims unequivocally but also questions Safesport’s ability to get the job done. I think some if not many here might find this particular Twitter account interesting.