George Morris on the SS list

[kirbydog]

@farmpony84

If you read what I said I was actually looking at both sides.

“I don’t want to assume he is guilty nor do I want to assume the victim is lying. I only hope that there is evidence that can be provided to prove these facts and if it is true, then I hope the victim can find closure.”

“”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹The victim may truly be an innocent who was afraid, embarrassed, shocked, or confused. They may have decided with the way things are now that by coming forward - they can loan others the strength to do so as well.”

You chose to read what you wanted to. You chose to incriminate me without any facts.

I am saddened by these allegations. True or False - I am saddened that it may have happened.

If you knew ANYTHING about GHM, you wouldn’t be so shocked by this. And if you took the SS training, then you would also know that it covers bullying and verbal abuse, something GHM pretty much prides himself on, and is famous for. Just try being a blond girl riding in one of his clinics. and maybe carry a few extra pounds. He may be a great trainer, but he is also a verbally abusive bully

[Denali6298]

@kirbydog

If you knew ANYTHING about GHM, you wouldn’t be so shocked by this. And if you took the SS training, then you would also know that it covers bullying and verbal abuse, something GHM pretty much prides himself on, and is famous for. Just try being a blond girl riding in one of his clinics. and maybe carry a few extra pounds. He may be a great trainer, but he is also a verbally abusive bully

She’s from the AQHA/breed world and feels compelled to comment without reading or asking questions first.

[Denali6298]

@ladyj79

Jonathan Devine/Scoresi has not just started singing because he got caught with child pornography. His allegations go way back.

It is absolutely common for victims of childhood sexual abuse to become abusers, which is why it is so so important to start ending the cycle.

Yeah I just vaguely remember child porn.

[Darkwave]

@kirbydog

If you knew ANYTHING about GHM, you wouldn’t be so shocked by this. And if you took the SS training, then you would also know that it covers bullying and verbal abuse, something GHM pretty much prides himself on, and is famous for. Just try being a blond girl riding in one of his clinics. and maybe carry a few extra pounds. He may be a great trainer, but he is also a verbally abusive bully

One of the interesting things to me is that, as I understand it, SS was indeed supposed to cover a range of behaviors that include sexual misconduct, verbal abuse and bullying. And yet all of the investigations and suspensions that I have heard of, regardless of sport, revolve around sexual misconduct. I’m guessing that’s because it’s the most black-and-white version of misconduct? A bit less in the “eye of the beholder” than something like the difference between forceful coaching and bullying?

[Andrew]

Is there a transscript of the hearing?

[YankeeDuchess]

@Denali6298

When it’s peer reviewed I’ll care. The first link is straight opinion with zero science. By their logic either me or my brother should be gay.

@Denali6298

  It’s not exactly science to make a sweeping conclusion based on one, personal, observation: “Neither my sibling nor I am gay, despite having a gay parent.”

[Denali6298]

@Andrew

Is there a transscript of the hearing?

Transcripts are never available when minors are involved. Ask George. He might have one.

[Denali6298]

@YankeeDuchess

@Denali6298

It’s not exactly science to make a sweeping conclusion based on one, personal, observation: “Neither my sibling nor I am gay, despite having a gay parent.”

Well if someone is going to present me with “science” I’ll counter it with “science”. Lots of “science” can prove things. Read Backlash. Lots of “science” there.

[skydy]

@MHM

I believe he was suspended by the USEF for quite a long time. If he was off the suspension list recently, I was not aware of it. I think he was still teaching/training at a barn somewhere, but could not attend USEF shows during that period.

Did USEF feel that a suspension would cure him of his taste for kiddie porn? Did they think it was OK to allow him on show grounds, where there are great numbers of children, because time had passed since he was arrested?

Christ on a raft, how can they be such imbeciles? It took Safe Sport to ban him. It boggles the mind.

I can only find his current suspension on the USEF list.

[RainWeasley]

@Denali6298

She’s from the AQHA/breed world and feels compelled to comment without reading or asking questions first.

What on earth is with your attitude? I don’t think I’ve seen you say a nice thing to anyone that isn’t a victim of abuse not on this board.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Darkwave

One of the interesting things to me is that, as I understand it, SS was indeed supposed to cover a range of behaviors that include sexual misconduct, verbal abuse and bullying. And yet all of the investigations and suspensions that I have heard of, regardless of sport, revolve around sexual misconduct. I’m guessing that’s because it’s the most black-and-white version of misconduct? A bit less in the “eye of the beholder” than something like the difference between forceful coaching and bullying?

My understanding is that bullying is supposed to be handled by the NGBs.

[Texarkana]

@YankeeDuchess

On what basis did you say that SafeSport has been quick to back down when someone puts up a fight?

I’m assuming they anticipate the appeal and don’t hand down a lifetime ban unless they think it will be upheld on appeal.

I agree about not issuing a sanction that wouldn’t uphold appeal, but…

I said they are quick to back down because when speaking with some of the vocal SafeSport critics with firsthand investigation experience, I was told some really interesting stories. They may be all hearsay. I hate to repeat them here if they are hearsay.

One incidence I can substantiate is Luis Rodriguez’s removal from the list:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport…ns/1597259001/

SS issued its ban after the trial was concluded. When he paid to share the trial transcript with SS, they dropped his ban. Surely they knew the trial results prior to issuing the ban, so what was their reasoning on applying the sanction only to reverse their stance so quickly?

To be clear, I’m 100% in support of SafeSport. I’ve just become skeptical of their ability to maintain their position if serious pressure is put on them.

[BayBondGirl]

@evilc123

Sort of like clinics!

I choked on my water.

A very serious subject, but the irony was just too good…

[MHM]

@Darkwave

One of the interesting things to me is that, as I understand it, SS was indeed supposed to cover a range of behaviors that include sexual misconduct, verbal abuse and bullying. And yet all of the investigations and suspensions that I have heard of, regardless of sport, revolve around sexual misconduct. I’m guessing that’s because it’s the most black-and-white version of misconduct? A bit less in the “eye of the beholder” than something like the difference between forceful coaching and bullying?

I would think of them as two completely different things. Plus if safe sport has limited resources, I think it’s safe to say they should be concentrating those resources on investigating allegations of sexual misconduct before they worry about bullying and the like. If they are swamped, they probably need to prioritize one type of investigation over the other.

I would say the comments about how things were different back then, and times have changed, etc., etc. might actually apply to different styles of teaching now compared to decades ago. The more military style of instruction that was the basis for lots of trainers back in the day would be considered way over the top by many people these days. So that topic seems to be a bit more open to discussion and interpretation.

[Denali6298]

@RainWeasley

What on earth is with your attitude? I don’t think I’ve seen you say a nice thing to anyone that isn’t a victim of abuse not on this board.

Umm she’s done it before in other threads not related to H/J. And you’re new so no you haven’t. I do not tolerate uneducated opinions that involve “they got something out of it” lightly with sexual abuse. I have my line in the sand. That’s my line. Not cool when the person has zero clue because it spreads misinformation and makes it worse for people who speak up or maybe want to speak up. My line in the sand is kids.

Also when someone suggests the emails from GHM came from breed registries or smartpak yeah… I suggested she read a lot.

[MissCoco]

I took some time on my lunch hour to follow up on IdahoRider’s look at the SafeSport disciplinary lists for several sports, because I do think it is worth thinking about if the issue of sexual misconduct and other SafeSport violations is particularly pervasive in equestrian sports, or if this undercurrent is common to other youth sports.

There are a couple of issues to figuring out how pervasive these violations are in any particular sport
The first problem that I came across is that when considering participant numbers, it’s hard to find data on how many violators/players were around in a given year, since most data on youth sports participation is x number of players in a given year.

Another very important caveat to this look at some numbers, is that we have no idea if these numbers represent the actual number of violators in a given sport.

That said, and to give a very very rough and deeply flawed reflection of the relative “pervasiveness” of this issue I counted the number of safesport violations for a particular sport, and then tried to find the most recent number of youth (under 18) participants. I used cited numbers (ie published in peer reviewed journals, or from SFIA reports).
Then I divided violations by current participants to give a single number summary.

Here is what I found:
soccer has about 6.8 million participants under 18 in the US and 58 SafeSport violations
That is 8.5*10^-6 violations per participant (0.0000085)

Also, because people have asked about it, I did notice that soccer had quite a few violations that were physical misconduct (and one ethical violation), which I didn’t notice in the other sports I looked at. Sexual misconduct and criminal disposition -sexual misconduct were still the most common violations, but less of an overwhelming majority than in other sports.

Tennis has 4.3 million participants and 19 SafeSport violations
4.4*10^-6 violations per participant (0.0000044)

Equestrian sports have about 2 million youth participants (cited in several studies, but I couldn’t find any cited numbers after 2000) and 27 SafeSport Violations
1.4*10^-5 violations per participant (0.000014)

I had a lot of trouble finding statistics on youth competitive swimming, but a number around 2 million showed up in a few discussions, I think this number is likely higher, since swimming is also among the most-played youth sports in the US (ranking higher than tennis on several lists based on large and well-distributed samples), so I used 3 million for my math.
Swimming has about 186 SafeSport violations, I may have accidentally double counted or missed a few violations while scrolling.
6.2*10^-5 violations per participant (0.000062)

I wasn’t able to come up with a number for gymnastics participants, but I think it is worth mentioning anytime a discussion of sexual abuse in youth sports comes up. There are 211 listed safesport violations.
I also failed to find plausible participant numbers for figure skating, with 18 violations listed.

I don’t think there are any conclusions to be drawn from this, except that SafeSport is necessary.
My other observation is that swimming, the sport that is in the same order of magnitude as riding with regards to violations per participant has had a somewhat recent scandal regarding USA swimming failing to appropriately respond to reports of sexual misconduct in the sport, and it seems the past couple years have been a period where a lot of previously disregarded reports have been brought to light.

Hopefully this is not too much of a tangent for this thread.

[anon6923113]

@Darkwave

One of the interesting things to me is that, as I understand it, SS was indeed supposed to cover a range of behaviors that include sexual misconduct, verbal abuse and bullying. And yet all of the investigations and suspensions that I have heard of, regardless of sport, revolve around sexual misconduct. I’m guessing that’s because it’s the most black-and-white version of misconduct? A bit less in the “eye of the beholder” than something like the difference between forceful coaching and bullying?

Read the Chronicle article that just came out with Q and A directly with USEF and Safe Sport about this. They have prioritized investigations and complaints based on possible ongoing risk to children, and severity of complaints. Also… it has been widely covered that Safe Sport has been FLOODED with complaints since its inception. They thought they would get (?) I think less than 100 in the first year, and actually got in excess of 800.

If if they are as flooded with complaints and short staffed as it seems, it is understandable that they have prioritized complaints involving sexual misconduct with minors that indicates an ongoing risk to the general public, or particularly egregious abuse.

[jetsmom]

@Tiramit

Good. If it’s true then bring them all down.

Hopefully, they are all brought down.

Does anyone think that maybe parents will start accompanying their kids on the show circuit, and not letting them travel alone with trainers? I know my parents refused to let me go alone with my trainer as a teen, and it was a female married trainer.
I see a lot of kids allowed to go show without their parents. Seems like that could be putting them in risky situations…even if not to be assaulted, but being around after parties, drinking.
Has anyone seen any change at shows?

[YankeeDuchess]

@Denali6298

Well if someone is going to present me with “science” I’ll counter it with “science”. Lots of “science” can prove things. Read Backlash. Lots of “science” there.

@Denali6298

 Interesting. If someone presented me with quote-science-unquote (which I assume means absolute crap masquerading as science), I would counter it with actual science. While the research described in the LATimes article may not yet be published, I doubt PhD microbiology researchers affiliated with UCLA medical school are making grand conclusions based on single observations. Of themselves.

[Denali6298]

@MissCoco

I took some time on my lunch hour to follow up on IdahoRider’s look at the SafeSport disciplinary lists for several sports, because I do think it is worth thinking about if the issue of sexual misconduct and other SafeSport violations is particularly pervasive in equestrian sports, or if this undercurrent is common to other youth sports.

There are a couple of issues to figuring out how pervasive these violations are in any particular sport
The first problem that I came across is that when considering participant numbers, it’s hard to find data on how many violators/players were around in a given year, since most data on youth sports participation is x number of players in a given year.

Another very important caveat to this look at some numbers, is that we have no idea if these numbers represent the actual number of violators in a given sport.

That said, and to give a very very rough and deeply flawed reflection of the relative “pervasiveness” of this issue I counted the number of safesport violations for a particular sport, and then tried to find the most recent number of youth (under 18) participants. I used cited numbers (ie published in peer reviewed journals, or from SFIA reports).
Then I divided violations by current participants to give a single number summary.

Here is what I found:
soccer has about 6.8 million participants under 18 in the US and 58 SafeSport violations
That is 8.5*10^-6 violations per participant (0.0000085)

Also, because people have asked about it, I did notice that soccer had quite a few violations that were physical misconduct (and one ethical violation), which I didn’t notice in the other sports I looked at. Sexual misconduct and criminal disposition -sexual misconduct were still the most common violations, but less of an overwhelming majority than in other sports.

Tennis has 4.3 million participants and 19 SafeSport violations
4.4*10^-6 violations per participant (0.0000044)

Equestrian sports have about 2 million youth participants (cited in several studies, but I couldn’t find any cited numbers after 2000) and 27 SafeSport Violations
1.4*10^-5 violations per participant (0.000014)

I had a lot of trouble finding statistics on youth competitive swimming, but a number around 2 million showed up in a few discussions, I think this number is likely higher, since swimming is also among the most-played youth sports in the US (ranking higher than tennis on several lists based on large and well-distributed samples), so I used 3 million for my math.
Swimming has about 186 SafeSport violations, I may have accidentally double counted or missed a few violations while scrolling.
6.2*10^-5 violations per participant (0.000062)

I wasn’t able to come up with a number for gymnastics participants, but I think it is worth mentioning anytime a discussion of sexual abuse in youth sports comes up. There are 211 listed safesport violations.
I also failed to find plausible participant numbers for figure skating, with 18 violations listed.

I don’t think there are any conclusions to be drawn from this, except that SafeSport is necessary.
My other observation is that swimming, the sport that is in the same order of magnitude as riding with regards to violations per participant has had a somewhat recent scandal regarding USA swimming failing to appropriately respond to reports of sexual misconduct in the sport, and it seems the past couple years have been a period where a lot of previously disregarded reports have been brought to light.

Hopefully this is not too much of a tangent for this thread.

This is pervasive everywhere. It’s an unfortunate reality. The horse world has the most push back.