George Morris on the SS list

[Escada]

Davignport - From Mary Phelps personal FB page

“Robert Dover speaks. Thank you for standing up and taking a stand. Safe Sport needs an overhaul - period.”

[lonewolf]

@Denali6298

In some of the social media posts concerning Rob Gage, a woman was stating that’s how it was. She then told a story about how she walked in on JW having sex with a junior rider.

The horse world is way to small to give out those details because someone some where will know who and bet, that name will be on social media. People still are commenting the SS killed Rob Gage despite HR holding an informal QA about it. Another person has a photo from 2017 that makes you go WTF? I’ve seen it. That person thankfully sent it to the appropriate people.

It’s a delicate line for sure. But I also think it could have helped to avoid what happened next: the victims ended up having to waive their anonymity completely and subject themselves to the full backlash of deniers just to correct the misinformation and be believed.

A basic summary as I mentioned above would have shielded them much better.

[fargaloo]

@HLMom

I’m sorry you’re not comfortable with what the science seems to show. Kind of reminds me of the Republicans with global warming. “We don’t like it; therefore it can’t be true!”

Here is a 2019 article that reaches the same conclusion: https://www.timescolonist.com/life/health/your-good-health-why-is-one-identical-twin-gay-the-other-straight-1.23644975

Keep in mind what is meant by "environment’ in genetic studies. It usually means “anything that is not attributed to DNA sequences”. Thus, this includes epigenetic phenomena, uterine environment, anything that affects upregulation or downregulation of genes, nutrition, contaminants, etc., etc., etc. Social environment is a part of overall “environment”, but no one knows how much (if at all) it’s relevant in sexual orientation. it’s not a correct reading of the science to assume that everything not accounted for by “genes” equals “how you were raised”.

Science does however support @evilc 123’s position.

Back to the topic of the thread.

[Jealoushe]

At least now they are finally mad at SS and not the USEF LOL

[BigMama1]

@IdahoRider

And that guy he asked is really, really good looking! So if GM didn’t go after the super good looking dude, he wouldn’t have gone after anyone.

It disappoints me that Dover would do this.
Sheilah

Robert D has to say that guy is good looking; “that guy” is his husband. I believe he meant that as tongue in cheek but it was a poorly thought out comment, as was his whole defense of GM.

[Denali6298]

@Texarkana

What I’ve learned about the appeal process from the fallout after RG is that SafeSport tends to be pretty quick to back down anymore when someone puts up a good fight.

I have no doubt in my mind GM will have this overturned, regardless of the “truth,” given his stature and seemingly endless access to the resources of his supporters.

I hope I’m wrong, not because I want him to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt, but because overturning it would be about the worst thing that could happen in terms of SafeSport earning respect from the equestrian industry. :no: As I’ve mentioned in the RG thread, “permanent ineligibility” from SafeSport has done little to slow down business for an alarming number of parties on the list, with many of those banned still actively involved in programs that train children. Overturning GM’s suspension would further perpetuate misconceptions that SafeSport operates under false information.

I’m wondering, Jonathan has a conviction for child pornography. Most people with convicts are straight up banned. Maybe him being on the suspension list rather than the ban has to do with him singing like a canary about GM? Maybe it won’t be overturned so easily.

[Midge]

@evilc123

Sort of like clinics!

Ha! Exactly!!!

[AngryAlter]

@caffeinated

I think PART (not all) of the backlash here is because people want to believe that they’d be able to spot an abuser. That they’d prevent it, that there’s something obvious about them. That it would never happen to them or their family because they’re attentive. This is the origin of “stranger danger” and the idea of creeper perverts.

{I have cut out the rest of this quote until the following sentence}

I also know there is an extremely good chance a person I know who experienced mental/emotional abuse at the hands of GM, is very likely to be reading this thread. If he is, I’m thinking of you right now and hope you’re OK. And I really hope all this commentary is not hurting you.

I am shaking while I am typing this. Me. Me. I am the adult who has always been so conscientious about anyone around my child. Me. Me. I allowed my child to be emotionally and psychologically abused by someone in the horse industry and got sucked into the abuse as well. It’s a long story. The repercussions are still there for both my child and me and I will never again trust any trainer. I am angry. I was smart, I was knowledgeable, I was aware, I was involved and it STILL HAPPENED. I hate myself and especially this trainer for what happened. I. Hate. Her. No one warned us and after we left, we had so many people approach us and tell us what happened to them. This rabid victim shaming that’s going on right now is one of the reasons we will never report her to Safe Sport. That and the fact that she’s loosing her business and can’t hold on the clients.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Texarkana

What I’ve learned about the appeal process from the fallout after RG is that SafeSport tends to be pretty quick to back down anymore when someone puts up a good fight.

I have no doubt in my mind GM will have this overturned, regardless of the “truth,” given his stature and seemingly endless access to the resources of his supporters.

I hope I’m wrong, not because I want him to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt, but because overturning it would be about the worst thing that could happen in terms of SafeSport earning respect from the equestrian industry. :no: As I’ve mentioned in the RG thread, “permanent ineligibility” from SafeSport has done little to slow down business for an alarming number of parties on the list, with many of those banned still actively involved in programs that train children. Overturning GM’s suspension would further perpetuate misconceptions that SafeSport operates under false information.

@Texarkana

On what basis did you say that SafeSport has been quick to back down when someone puts up a fight?

I’m assuming they anticipate the appeal and don’t hand down a lifetime ban unless they think it will be upheld on appeal.

[HLMom]

@DarkBayUnicorn

For those who are, once again, asking to see evidence, to know who the victims are. .

And once again, we have the straw man argument. I’ve read every post on this thread and I don’t see anyone asking to know the names of victims. Do you?

Look, I’m not here to defend GM. In my own mind, given the rumors, the wild tales in his book, and the care USEF would take with someone of his stature, I lean toward suspecting he is guilty. (Not that my own personal hunch should count for much, but there it is).

I would just advocate that people engage in this discussion reasonably, fairly, and accurately, taking care not to misconstrue each other’s arguments or bully them for raising questions. Does that seem like a reasonable goal?

[Jealoushe]

I don’t think they would ban someone of such stature as GM if they didn’t feel they had a really, really, solid case. I’m sure whatever the NYT is cooking up won’t help his case either.

[seriously1]

@HLMom

I’m sorry you’re not comfortable with what the science seems to show. Kind of reminds me of the Republicans with global warming. “We don’t like it; therefore it can’t be true!”

Here is a 2019 article that reaches the same conclusion: https://www.timescolonist.com/life/h…ght-1.23644975

And another recent one:
https://www.latimes.com/science/scie…007-story.html

"But experts said the results – as yet unpublished in a peer-reviewed journal – offer preliminary new evidence that a man’s genetic inheritance is only one influence on his sexual orientation. Through the epigenome, the results suggest, some facet of life experience likely also primes a man for same-sex attraction.

Over a person’s lifetime, myriad environmental factors – nutrition, poverty, a mother’s love, education, exposure to toxic chemicals – all help shape the person he will become."

What experts??

[evilc123]

@seriously?

What experts??

Click link. Read article.

[Denali6298]

@evilc123

Click link. Read article.

When it’s peer reviewed I’ll care. The first link is straight opinion with zero science. By their logic either me or my brother should be gay.

[Denali6298]

@evilc123

Agree with this. The PROCESS (as in, the standard operating procedures, not the process for specific cases) should be completely transparent to the public and stakeholders should maybe even have a say in that process. But after that, we need to trust the process and outcomes as it pertains to evaluating specific cases. Plus…disclosing that there had been more than one victim (as someone else suggested) shouldn’t change the way the public forms their opinions about sexual predators! ffs.

The process is pretty transparent. A flow chart has been posted numerous times.

[evilc123]

@Denali6298

When it’s peer reviewed I’ll care. The first link is straight opinion with zero science. By their logic either my or my brother should be gay.

I was simply pointing out that the “experts” are listed in the article. Just because they hadn’t published their results in a peer reviewed journal yet doesn’t mean they aren’t experts.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@HLMom

And once again, we have the straw man argument. I’ve read every post on this thread and I don’t see anyone asking to know the names of victims. Do you?

Look, I’m not here to defend GM. In my own mind, given the rumors, the wild tales in his book, and the care USEF would take with someone of his stature, I lean toward suspecting he is guilty. (Not that my own personal hunch should count for much, but there it is).

I would just advocate that people engage in this discussion reasonably, fairly, and accurately, taking care not to misconstrue each other’s arguments or bully them for raising questions. Does that seem like a reasonable goal?

Go read Facebook. It’s all over and blatant.

I should be more explicit: “For those who are --not on this thread of course–asking to see evidence…etc.”

We know from the RG thread that there are a lot of angry Facebookers and members of the FB Safesport Reform crowd that are reading these threads.

There were lots of people asking for details here on COTH, too, on the RG thread when that news broke. LOTS of them. Don’t have time to go back now and re-read all of the posts here, but I’m sure I can find something somewhere with someone wishing we had more details on the evidence.

I do agree with your goal (that people engage in this discussion reasonably, fairly, and accurately, taking care not to misconstrue each other’s arguments or bully them for raising questions), and fail to see where I stepped out of line? I named no names. I tagged no poster. I quoted not a post. I read every sentence of the preceeding posts, and all of the RG thread as it happened.

[evilc123]

@Denali6298

The process is pretty transparent. A flow chart has been posted numerous times.

Yes, that is what I’m saying. The process should be transparent (and it is) but the details of cases should not be.

[Denali6298]

@evilc123

Yes, that is what I’m saying. The process should be transparent (and it is) but the details of cases should not be.

Ohhhh gotcha! And OMG your “like clinics” post :lol::lol:

And details shouldn’t be because the horse world is too small.

[ladyj79]

Jonathan Devine/Soresi has not just started singing because he got caught with child pornography. His allegations go way back.

It is absolutely common for victims of childhood sexual abuse to become abusers, which is why it is so so important to start ending the cycle.