George Morris on the SS list

[Mango20]

@bip

It’s a minor detail, but I’m irritated that they don’t know what equity means, nor “statistical”.

They also don’t know how big their group is. In that one letter (#3, I think it was called), she opens by saying the group has 7,800 members, but a couple of paragraphs later says it’s 7,700.

[vxf111]

@Mango20

They also don’t know how big their group is. In that one letter (#3, I think it was called), she opens by saying the group has 7,800 members, but a couple of paragraphs later says it’s 7,700.

That’s how good the writing was in those 3 paragraphs. It caused 100 members to drop out

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RegentLion

Well. This is an oddly specific list of questions… especially for “statistical analysis.”

I was trying to sort out why you guys were pointing out the issue with her use of “statistics.”

Now I get it. :sigh:

Almost as comical as their deliberate choice to use the word “equity” in the title of their organization. Add to that the word “athlete.” I see a few prominent folks closely associated with this organization who frankly are not what I would describe as an “athlete”. I might be wrong… but I think it’s been MANY years since many of them have even sat on a horse. Much less competed in a horse show (as a rider). And frankly… the majority of the names on the banned list are coaches. Many are also senior citizens. GM is actually an octogenarian.

So frankly, if DC wants to get into statistical analysis, I’d like to know a thing or two…

1. How many people who have donated to “athletes” for “equity” in sport are under the age of 60?

2. How many of the people who have donated to “athletes” for “equity” in sport actually are still competitors themselves? Meaning… they actually RIDE horses or ponies in horse shows? Or they actually ARE a gymnast or a figure skater? Can you put a percentage on the number of “athlete” donors vs the total number of donors?

3. How many of the people who have donated to “athletes” for “equity” in sport actually are COACHES first and foremost, or OWNERS of individual horses or horse related businesses or farms, or gymnastics or figure skating programs… Can you put a percentage on the number of “non athlete” donors vs. total number of donors?

[oneequestrienne]

Can we start an “I stand with the victims” group??? I am sooooo tempted to do it…

[Tackpud]

Can COTH come up with more than just a “like” button for posts?? I really want to love some, laugh at some, and cry with some.

[Jenerationx]

@vxf111

That’s how good the writing was in those 3 paragraphs. It caused 100 members to drop out

OMG… thank you for the much needed laugh.

@Tackpud I’m with you, I definitely need more buttons.

Someone needs to start I Stand With Survivors or I Stand Against Predators. Wouldn’t need donations for legal fees to protect ourselves from Safe Sport as we don’t believe in sexually assaulting anyone.

[oneequestrienne]

@Jenerationx

OMG… thank you for the much needed laugh.

@Tackpud I’m with you, I definitely need more buttons.

Someone needs to start I Stand With Survivors or I Stand Against Predators. Wouldn’t need donations for legal fees to protect ourselves from Safe Sport as we don’t believe in sexually assaulting anyone.

Apparently, someone started an ISWSS group after the GM arbitration. Unfortunately, all it did was draw a lot of fire…

[CHT]

Do you think some of the people “demanding” that we get more details on the accusations are really fishing to see if what they have done in the past could come back to haunt them?

I can think of two pros from my past experience that might be worried, and one has been publicly casting doubt about Safesport and the Canadian version.

For the most part it seems black and white, but there are grey areas that I bet have some wondering how worried they should be.

[fair_judy]

It is difficult to believe , from the quality of her prose to the flagrant lack of rational thinking, that Carney made it beyond middle school.

[Jenerationx]

@CHT

Do you think some of the people “demanding” that we get more details on the accusations are really fishing to see if what they have done in the past could come back to haunt them?

I can think of two pros from my past experience that might be worried, and one has been publicly casting doubt about Safesport and the Canadian version.

For the most part it seems black and white, but there are grey areas that I bet have some wondering how worried they should be.

That’s a possibility. I don’t know if it’s that or just plain denial that some people go through. You see it all the time with authority figures, friends, or family members… some find it hard to believe the person they thought they knew so well or respected so much would do something like that. I wasn’t believed for a very long time until several more people came forward and by then we were beyond statute of limitations.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@CHT

Do you think some of the people “demanding” that we get more details on the accusations are really fishing to see if what they have done in the past could come back to haunt them?

I can think of two pros from my past experience that might be worried, and one has been publicly casting doubt about Safesport and the Canadian version.

For the most part it seems black and white, but there are grey areas that I bet have some wondering how worried they should be.

There are some LOUD rumors about an investigation going on at present involving a big name with close ties to Canada and the US. But no name has been put on the temporarily suspended list yet…

It seems like Safe Sport has investigated a few people now, before putting their names out on any list. GM is obviously one of them. He was never temporarily suspended, but the investigation went on in the background for 2 years. His name didn’t go on the list until they announced the decision about a lifetime ban.

[OverandOnward]

@LE

…
My next question is, did GM continue this behavior? From what I’m reading, it seems that he did this in the 60s70s era. What I am getting at is, pedophiles don’t stop with an era. If they are attracted to kids, they continue. So, did he? Did he continue to have relationships with under aged boys up until now? This is where I am still very confused about his ban.
…

I think quite a few people are wondering the same thing.

Beyond the initial shock that GM of all people was banned for life - not that anyone didn’t believe that something happened, but rather that GM seemed beyond all accountability, until he wasn’t - was that this ultimate SS penalty is reserved for those who “pose an ongoing threat”, in addition to their other sins.

He’s in his 80’s and all, but age hasn’t stopped others, if they were spry enough to fly around continents coaching athletes.

I don’t know what the full truth of the situation is for GM or for SS. But after a 2 year investigation, SS was convinced of something that led them to go the whole way on this one. And the arbitrator agreed.

[OverandOnward]

@Rides Again

December 9, 2019
US Center for Safesport
1385 S Colorado Blvd Ste A-706
Denver, CO, 80222
… To whom it may concern:
My name is Diane Carney. I am the President of Athletes for Equity in Sport Inc.,

…

1. How does Safesport define and handle situations when a “victim” was in a bar or pub with a fake identification and voluntarily has sexual relations with a 25 year old coach he or she met in that bar or drinking establishment?

…

The quotes used around “victim” are confirming for me my suspicions of what is really going on with DC and those who back her. As well as the entire description of this # 1 item of the letter.

They aren’t denying that it happens. Rather, they don’t see it as a problem. They don’t think it needs to be fixed.

It’s “voluntary”. Under-age notwithstanding, given that the hypothetical “he or she” has a fake ID.

It’s all part of the party that is horse showing. And the horse show culture. The sex is all in good spirit and if someone gets their feelings hurt later and complains, they are just making life miserable for someone else who was doing nothing more than partying along with everyone else.

I’m wondering if any of this group sees beyond this horse-show-culture scenario. If they ever imagine another sort of reality in which sexual abuse occurs coercively – and if they think that, at least, should be addressed.

Even if they are missing the point that trainers of any age need to conduct themselves with discretion, simply because of their position in the public eye and the likelihood that unwise/unsavory actions are likely to be found out and gossiped about, at least. As is the case for many careers that have more public exposure than most.

I’m also kind of curious about SS’s reply to this scenario of sex with a fake-ID teenager. I think SS should answer the question and publish the question and the answer, because it might relieve some concerns of people who aren’t yet decided about SS.

Although I wonder if SS has been asked this specific question, as it seems it was addressed to a Congressperson, not SS. It would not be appropriate for SS to answer the Congressperson’s mail, unless asked by the office of the Congressperson to do so.

[ynl063w]

@Rides Again

Nothing in the latest letter to Safe Sport to suggest that “Athletes for Equity in Sport” has any interest in supporting victims of abuse.

December 9, 2019
US Center for Safesport
1385 S Colorado Blvd Ste A-706
Denver, CO, 80222
… To whom it may concern:
My name is Diane Carney. I am the President of Athletes for Equity in Sport Inc., a new non-profit organization advocating on behalf of athletes, coaches, trainers and others impacted by your organization.
Please provide me with the following information for statistical purposes:

1. How does Safesport define and handle situations when a “victim” was in a bar or pub with a fake identification and voluntarily has sexual relations with a 25 year old coach he or she met in that bar or drinking establishment?
2. What evidence is collected at the time of the alleged assault to verify that the accused and not another sexual partner was the perpetrator?
3. What is your definition of “Character Witness”?
4. What is the financial recourse in case an individual is determined to be wrongfully accused?
5. How does Safesport avoid false reporting in Contentious Custody Cases?
   I am asking for this as a member of USEF. I am required to take training by that organization. I am not requesting victim identifying information, only information for statistical purposes. I look forward to receiving this information. Your prompt attention to my request will be appreciated. Thank you.
   Sincerely,
   Diane Carney
   President, Athletes for Equity in Sport

From above:
2. What evidence is collected at the time of the alleged assault to verify that the accused and not another sexual partner was the perpetrator?

Who does Diane Carney think is present at the time of an assault whose purpose it is to collect evidence, that she is asking what that evidence is? Is she even reading what she writes in these letters she is sending out?

I’d love to know the breakdown of education levels of the members of that group. For statistical purposes only, of course.

[ladyj79]

I will likely write an opposing letter to send to the same office. I suggest others do so as they can.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ynl063w

From above:
2. What evidence is collected at the time of the alleged assault to verify that the accused and not another sexual partner was the perpetrator?

Who does Diane Carney think is present at the time of an assault whose purpose it is to collect evidence, that she is asking what that evidence is? Is she even reading what she writes in these letters she is sending out?

I’d love to know the breakdown of education levels of the members of that group. For statistical purposes only, of course.

But but but - she talks to 80 people each week about these issues. And wants to bring together lots of BRILLIANT minds to “negotiate” with Safe Sport.

Or something like that.

She he talks about sitting down and “hammering out” details with SafeSport… this team of “brilliant” people… in order to make it all more “equitable.” She talks about wanting to “affect” change…

She actually REPEATEDLY uses the word “affect” in the interview. As a verb. But maybe that is a fault of editors. I’m not sure.

All I can say is that “brilliant” people are typically more interested in effecting change, than affecting change.

But what do I know. I’m a smurf. Certainly not one of the 80 people talking with DC each week, and brainstorming in various subcommittees that are all part of this grandiose effort to “affect” change and reform Safe Sport so that there is more “equity” for…

“Athletes”?

And one last thing… I noticed that her organization wants these “reforms” to Safe Sport that this brilliant team of people helps to “affect” in some sort of negotiation to be…

RETROACTIVE.

So yeah… it’s all about George. :rolleyes:

[oneequestrienne]

DC quite clearly has become unhinged,

[specifiedcupcake]

I wonder if there are any other sports that have hopped on the Athletes for Equity train? It’s very blatantly “horse people” by the names publicized.

Also would love to know what the other sport members think of the USEF right now as a group.

EDIT TO ADD: shot the question to gymnastics and figure skating groups on Reddit. I know it’s not the ideal social cross section, but it’s fast. Some fun nuggets: “I actually think the whitewashing [by SS] of anything from lewd messages to rape as ‘sexual misconduct’ doesn’t accurately portray the seriousness of most offenses.”

And here they’re mad that SS is not moving fast enough for “only” verbal/emotional/physical abuse (pulling athletes hair, encouraging injured ones to compete, yelling at them etc) https://www.ocregister.com/2019/10/28/parents-frustrated-with-u-s-center-for-safesport-for-delays-in-anna-li-jiani-wu-abuse-case/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[vxf111]

This is neither here nor there (it really isn’t) but the writing professor in me just wants to point out that the word “affect” can be used as a verb that means “produce an effect on.” It is probably not the best/clearest word choice but it is not incorrect. I have made no attempt to wordsmith DC’s piece (or read it closely for grammar) but there is a correct use of “affect” as a verb.

[mvp]

@OverandOnward

I’m also kind of curious about SS’s reply to this scenario of sex with a fake-ID teenager. I think SS should answer the question and publish the question and the answer, because it might relieve some concerns of people who aren’t yet decided about SS.

Although I wonder if SS has been asked this specific question, as it seems it was addressed to a Congressperson, not SS. It would not be appropriate for SS to answer the Congressperson’s mail, unless asked by the office of the Congressperson to do so.

I think the university situation might offer a somewhat helpful precedent. In that setting, profs/instructors and even TAs? are prohibited from engaging in sexual relationships with their students. Some of those are over age, some are not; sometimes the “adult” will know the student’s age (or not) and I’m sure lying goes on. But the key feature of this prohibition has to do with power, not the age of the victim nor his/her honesty. People in positions of power are prohibited from having sexual relationships with those they have power over.

So for your bar situation, I think a couple of points should be clear.

1. The victim doesn’t have to be innocent or likable in order to be deserving of protection. The most conniving of Lolita’s gets credibility with SafeSport.

2. If the coach sees someone he/she knows as an athlete in a bar, he/she knows enough not to pursue a sexual relationship with them and probably knows a bit more about that person’s age than did the guy carding people at the door.

Again, I do think lots of this is about power differentials getting exploited by professionals who also want some sexual bonus to their job on the side.