George Morris on the SS list

[skydy]

@oneequestrienne

My neurologist and I believe that I have had more than 20 concussions over the years, so yes, I wear my helmet. I rely on emojis or GIFs to express any head banging… 🤪

Glad to hear it. Too many of us have been bonked on the head too many times.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Midge

And she even posted the arbitration notices and tries to conflate two things. The first one is the information for an arbitration hearing on temporary suspension measures. The cost for arbitration in that matter is $1500, of which the respondent pays 1/3, so $500. The second is for arbitration of a finding of code violations, which is $5200. She says, “This is an older case, when it was $5200.” As if they are the same thing. But her fan club doesn’t have two brain cells between them, so they can’t parse out those tricky details. And that convicted sex offender Jim Giorgio is cheering her on.

All those people who say, Of COURSE they are against sexual assault, it’s just that Safe Sport is so bad, should wonder why their leaders need to lie about it and allow a guy who actually DID assault a minor child and get a criminal conviction to cheer them on. I mean, when they want the courts to handle it, this is the guy they are talking about. Yet they keep him with them in their corner. Speaks volumes.

Thank you for noting Jim Giorgio appearing AGAIN with her latest Facebook antics.

I’m waiting for Randall Cates to comment as well. He was actually part of Kathy Hobstetter’s group for awhile, if I recall correctly, but after pointing out OVER AND OVER on these threads that he was the guy who had a sexual relationship with a minor teenaged student, as a 40 something yr old man… even Kathy H had the common sense to boot him from the group.

What is with BN and Jim Giorgio? It’s just gross.

[ClerkofCourts]

One would hope this would convince the #ISWGs but I’m guessing they’ll still hold onto their alternative facts. https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/10-takeaways-from-the-ushja-safesport-presentation-with-michael-henry

[mvp]

@ladyj79

The problem is most people (probably 99%) who make that allusion haven’t read the book, they just think they’re being smart.

Ok, but you don’t even have had to read the book (BTW, there’s a movie version for the lascivious and illiterate out there), to know what the reference means. And again, I would find it really curious if the proverbial Everyreader thought that “nymphets” were An Actual Thing and not Humbert’s fantasy. In other words, do we identify with Humbert** in his view of causality and power in this affair or some other one?

Again, this is a genuine question that I couldn’t answer as a thought experiment because of perspectivalism. I don’t think I’ll ever have a male, pornographic gaze because of how my gender gets treated generally and how I was treated in particular. BTW, I don’t think the straight, male, pornographic gaze was what made Nabokov’s novel or character remarkable. Rather it was the step beyond pornography into pedophilia that caught folks’ interest. But the important question is whether or not random people dropping this reference in conversation share my point of view (which I think is without gender and with morality) or not.

**And Humbert’s POV, whether you think that means men are helpless in the face of sexual attraction; children are sexually attractive; anyone you want to have sex with (and can get away with it in the eyes of culture, the law or your own conscience) are fair game, all those things are actually debated. Anyone who has ever said “She came to the barn wearing a tank top, so…” is trotting out a Humbertian logic.

So not knowing jack about the book, the movie or anything but this fictional character, you have to ask, too, which “inherited” and broad reading of that book those people actually got.

[dags]

@LE

The odds of that happening are slim to none—a trainer in a bar hooking up with an under age rider with a fake ID would be a million to one.

2 Words: Player’s Club.

I have to do about zero mental gymnastics to think this “hypothetical” is a real-life possibility. In fact, I’d bet it’s on the SafeSport docket right now.

And that is why the industry is up in arms: The whole lot of their lifestyle is under scrutiny. Safely ensconced in their A Circuit bubble they’ve managed to avoid the reform the rest of the world has undertaken in the last few decades. This is demonstrated by the shock of hearing that grown men stopped giving solitary underage females rides home yeaaarrrrs ago. Or that every child-centric industry has had some form of SS training and MAAP policy in place for eons.

Spent way too long traveling that circuit in the wee days of my business and the things I saw would put some traveling rock acts to shame (seriously, for a group that makes their living as professional “athletes” they sure have an interesting way of maintaining “top form”). Something about the nomadic lifestyle, dealing with clients only on weekends, and the already insular nature of horses seems to have created a vacuum where a standard code of business ethics simply does not exist.

[Jealoushe]

@ClerkofCourts

One would hope this would convince the #ISWGs but I’m guessing they’ll still hold onto their alternative facts. https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/10-takeaways-from-the-ushja-safesport-presentation-with-michael-henry

Right. Of course they won’t.

I hope all those who wanted all the dirty details are happy, you wanted em, you got em. Can you sleep at night now knowing these kids were repeatedly anal raped?? And to think that in some of the eyes of the posters here that is not enough reason to ban someone.

[dags]

Also have never read nor watched Lolita and have been carrying around the wrong perception, largely in part to its ignorant use in relation to victim shaming, so I appreciate whoever called out that incorrect take.

[mvp]

@skydy

Poor Moroney had to practically shout that the USEF SUPPORTS SAFE SPORT in his closing speech. He explained that USEF understood that many of its members couldn’t comprehend Safe Sport (too much info at once) so they hired a communications firm to explain it.

God what a PR disaster for USEF if parents only listened to the questions from the audience.

Way to sound like an organization made up of people that can’t comprehend a simple concept, even when explained in detail, and who thought a few cocktails before hand was a good idea.

Well,… the PR disaster was perhaps a bit of a self-inflicted wound. Moroney might helped himself if he had issued a stronger statement of reaction to the results of the GM Lifetime ban. I’m not sure it would have made a difference to the crowd of entitled, clueless USEF members who felt sure they had grounds for debating the merits of SafeSport’s process. Had those people seen the NGB come down fully on the side of SafeSport just a couple of weeks earlier, however, they might have been forced to consider SafeSport more carefully`or soften their unpopular position. As Moroney’s curt statement stood, it left some implied room for unhappy USEF members to contest SafeSport.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ClerkofCourts - thanks for linking the article. I think it’s really important to have it on this thread, and the two others about Safe Sport. It gives people a good summary of where the issue stands now in our sport and community after a number of lightning rod events that have unfolded all summer and fall.

Sidenote - since summer, my COTH account takes every single post I make with a link of any kind in it, and boots it to a mod for review before it will post in a thread. It’s annoying. I understand the software works that way to prevent bots from spamming threads on the forum… but it’s cumbersome and I have stopped bothering messaging mods to get my posts approved and pulled out of the “holding tank” because by the time it gets sorted out… discussions have moved on.

Anyone else experiencing this issue routinely on the forums? Is there anything you all recommend to get your account settings back on track so that you are able to share really basic RELEVANT links like the one ClerkofCourts just shared? I am an avid news consumer and reader, and it’s frustrating not to be able to share a NUMBER of relevant, well written articles on these threads…

oh well. Enough complaining. It’s just a technical issue, and I will make a point of saying it’s a small annoyance compared to the positive impact these forums and threads have had on me personally over the last few months. The Safe Sport news and stories that have come out in 2018 and 2019 have been VERY triggering, and caused me to do a lot of reflection, reading and soul searching as a survivor, a rider, and a parent. I’m really grateful for the many many people who have followed these threads and shared their own experiences and thoughts. I’m also grateful for the way Moderators have kept an eye on it all, stepped in when necessary, but let the discussion flow.

One last point… COTH has done some incredible reporting on this issue in our sport in general over the course of the last two years. Starting with the JW piece. The recent op ed by Beth was excellent. And the interview with DC… though dismaying to read for me personally… was well executed by the interviewer and informative. Thank you for playing an essential role as we all try and come to grips with the issue of abuse of minor athletes in a sport we love, COTH. Hopefully, over the course of the next year, there will be opportunities to report positive news on how we are healing and coming together and going forward as a sport and community.

[RegentLion]

@Jealoushe

Right. Of course they won’t.

I hope all those who wanted all the dirty details are happy, you wanted em, you got em. Can you sleep at night now knowing these kids were repeatedly anal raped?? And to think that in some of the eyes of the posters here that is not enough reason to ban someone.

The first comment on the article itself (not FB link) encourages joining with DC’s group.

Still banging the “constitution” drum. Can’t say I’m surprised that these lowlifes are incapable of understanding the process… I’m sickened they continue to support child molestors and rapists.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

The Chron article is extremely interesting. On the whole, it is quite reassuring about how the process is conducted. However, 2 things jumped out at me:

1. The U.S. Center for SafeSport has its hands full.
To date the center has received around 4,600 reports—they get around 230 a month—which translates to 4,000 cases (some of the cases get multiple reports). Of those, they’ve resolved 2,800. Of the resolved cases, 800 have resulted in some violation of the SafeSport code.

Did everyone catch that SafeSport finds the vast majority of cases NOT to be a violation of SafeSport? We don’t know what combination this is of false reports, insufficient evidence, and perhaps conduct that is “mean” or tasteless but not a violation of SafeSport.

9. SafeSport decisions are overwhelmingly upheld in independent arbitration.
Out of over 800 decisions made by the U.S. Center for SafeSport, less than 1% have been overturned in arbitration.

I do wish people would speak more clearly. Have these 800 cases completed arbitration (or at least the time for arbitration has expired), or are some still pending? How many SafeSport arbitrations have actually been completed? That information is not provided. Notwithstanding the incomplete information, it seems like a good “report card” on SafeSport’s decisionmaking.

[fair_judy]

@ladyj79

The problem is most people (probably 99%) who make that allusion haven’t read the book, they just think they’re being smart.

BINGO. But they saw the movie, right? 🙄. People who don’t read generally don’t bother with details or nuances. They join ISWG for their daily dose.

[TheMoo]

@Horsegirl's Mom

The Chron article is extremely interesting. On the whole, it is quite reassuring about how the process is conducted. However, 2 things jumped out at me:

1. The U.S. Center for SafeSport has its hands full.
To date the center has received around 4,600 reports—they get around 230 a month—which translates to 4,000 cases (some of the cases get multiple reports). Of those, they’ve resolved 2,800. Of the resolved cases, 800 have resulted in some violation of the SafeSport code.

Did everyone catch that SafeSport finds the vast majority of cases NOT to be a violation of SafeSport? We don’t know what combination this is of false reports, insufficient evidence, and perhaps conduct that is “mean” or tasteless but not a violation of SafeSport.

9. SafeSport decisions are overwhelmingly upheld in independent arbitration.
Out of over 800 decisions made by the U.S. Center for SafeSport, less than 1% have been overturned in arbitration.

I do wish people would speak more clearly. Have these 800 cases completed arbitration (or at least the time for arbitration has expired), or are some still pending? How many SafeSport arbitrations have actually been completed? That information is not provided. Notwithstanding the incomplete information, it seems like a good “report card” on SafeSport’s decisionmaking.

I suggest watching the live stream. All of this is explained as well as why answers to some questions can’t be given.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@mvp and other well read posters who weighed in on Lolita…

Thanks. I found that tangential discussion very interesting. I never read Lolita or Nabokov… I did read Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov however. You all have triggered my curiosity though.

Great Russian lit is pretty incredible and nuanced when it comes to dark and complicated corners of the human psyche, and stories involving moral issues in society (the Russian Orthodox Church plays a profound role in the thinking of many writers), vs primitive human impulses (sex, suicide, murder and war are all major topics). Years ago I read Anna Karenina, and wrote a college paper on Vronsky, and how his affair with Anna and her later suicide was foreshadowed in the novel by the specific episode when he brutally and relentlessly rode a high strung thoroughbred mare in a steeplechase, and how she broke down as a result. It was an incredibly vivid part of that novel, and the woman and horse lover in me was deeply impacted reading it. I specifically focused on how the character of Vronsky was profoundly damaged, selfish and narcissistic. A man who pursued an affair with a beautiful unhappy woman who was also a mother to a young son… and eventually was destroyed by the whole situation and threw herself in front of a train. I made the case that the way Vronsky rode the mare during the steeplechase was a direct parallel to the way he treated and regarded Anna sexually, and was selfish, narcissistic, and destroyed something beautiful and female in a cruel and tragic way. I can’t remember all the specific details of the novel or my paper… but the prof really liked it.

Anyway… sorry for an additional tangent for anyone else following these threads who is NOT interested in Russian literature. But I thought those of you who had read Lolita and analyzed it, might find the Anna Karenina reference interesting. After all - we are all horse lovers too.

[ladyj79]

I love Russian literature.

And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ladyj79

I love Russia. literature.

And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.

I’ll admit that Crime & Punishment was a challenging read for me. Dostoevsky was an incredible writer… but I preferred Tolstoy. I loved Anna Karenina. And cried when reading it. Such a beautiful and sad novel.

But now that you mention C&P…

you’re RIGHT! I DO now remember that character. Horrid… ithe thing with the little girl was one of multiple parts of that novel that I had a hard time reading. And he committed suicide I think.

Another thing… Raskolnikov’s dream early on about the horse that was beaten to death. An old mare Awful. And he was a tiny child witnessing it. But it was foreshadowing the old woman.

I remember that… but it was awful and I hated Radkolnikov, and did not choose that part of the novel for a paper. I has a HARD time with C&P. My husband got me a copy of the Brothers Karamazov a few years ago as a gift. I haven’t read it. He loved it though.

[fair_judy]

@mvp

Well,… the PR disaster was perhaps a bit of a self-inflicted wound. Moroney might helped himself if he had issued a stronger statement of reaction to the results of the GM Lifetime ban. I’m not sure it would have made a difference to the crowd of entitled, clueless USEF members who felt sure they had grounds for debating the merits of SafeSport’s process. Had those people seen the NGB come down fully on the side of SafeSport just a couple of weeks earlier, however, they might have been forced to consider SafeSport more carefully`or soften their unpopular position. As Moroney’s curt statement stood, it left some implied room for unhappy USEF members to contest SafeSport.

Moroney waited too long and it shows like a coffee stain on a white shirt. There is always the faint blotch, or the fabric weakens from too much bleach. You are correct…he left the door open. It has long been time for new leadership. Now would be that time.

[atl_hunter]

@Virginia Horse Mom

[USER=“114463”]Years ago I read Anna Karenina, and wrote a college paper on Vronsky, and how his affair with Anna and her later suicide was foreshadowed in the novel by the specific episode when he brutally and relentlessly rode a high strung thoroughbred mare in a steeplechase, and how she broke down as a result. It was an incredibly vivid part of that novel, and the woman and horse lover in me was deeply impacted reading it. I specifically focused on how the character of Vronsky was profoundly damaged, selfish and narcissistic. A man who pursued an affair with a beautiful unhappy woman who was also a mother to a young son… and eventually was destroyed by the whole situation and threw herself in front of a train. I made the case that the way Vronsky rode the mare during the steeplechase was a direct parallel to the way he treated and regarded Anna sexually, and was selfish, narcissistic, and destroyed something beautiful and female in a cruel and tragic way. I can’t remember all the specific details of the novel or my paper… but the prof really liked it.

I also saw the parallel between his treatment of the mare and Anna.Having dated a narcissistic man who truly didn’t care about the trail of destruction he left in his wake, it was crushing to me as I could relate to her pain.

Taking this back to the SafeSport discussion, I am familiar with a narcissistic trainer who has made their business all about themself (I realize this is grammatically incorrect but I want to keep gender out of it). While the damage this individual has caused to families isn’t as outward and obvious as the GM abuse, the person is absolutely still abusive. Some parents have tolerated it as this individual tends to get results. The snarky jab, the blatant favoritism for child of the person filling said trainer’s need for narcissistic supply, and the chilly reception to the child of the parent who stands up for their kid. One has to wonder what the long term impact of some of these smaller tactics will be to these kids. From a one-off incident, it doesn’t look like much abuse at all. But it’s the sum of all activities where you see the pattern and wonder why parents are tolerating it? A child’s mental health is not worth convenience of a location or a blue ribbon. What is really sad is that so many people want to help this individual as there is so much talent there, but you really can’t help a narcissist. They seldom recognize they are the problem.

[punchy]

Footnote(1) Tolstoy wrote horses extraordinarily well for those who havent read him. In addition to the race in Anna K., the hunt scene in War and Peace is quite thrilling if anyone needs encouragement to attempt that heavy tome over the dark winter months. But so much depends on the translator … I recommend the Pevear and Volokhonsky translations. Then you could read the scenes again as others have translated it. This passes for fun for nerds. Interestingly, Nabokov wrote Lolita in English, so there are interesting thoughts on how he perceives the language he uses. Anyway, This little interruption is over.

[YankeeDuchess]

@ladyj79

I love Russian literature.

And the Russian romantics were often keen to write about the oppression and abuse of women and children.

Please see the character of Svidrigailov in crime and punishment. Charming, benevolent child molester.

While Nobokov is Russian, I believe he was living in the US when Lolita was published in the fifties.

I believe the publication of the book was quite scandalous, perhaps because the author treated Humbert as human and somewhat relatable, even likable, as opposed to a stick figure, one dimensional evil creep.