George Morris on the SS list

[Peggy]

@Crashing Boar

THIS^ is the issue. And it scares the living daylights out of anyone who can see the Big Picture. The most recent article on COTH states that GHM was suspended for “Safe Sport violations that allegedly took place between 1968 and 1972.” Huh?

Would one of the attorneys present please explain how one can be held RETROACTIVELY in violation by a group that DID NOT EXIST, would not exist for another 48 years, at the time of the violation?

CONTEXT of those times is everything! ALL of it–the parties and bars, the furtive gay scene, the poling, the dope–people had different issues than today’s mores, surveillance culture and litigious atmosphere. Was a lot of that stuff smart, or nice, or ethical? NO it was not, but please note the context was campus activity in the “Animal House” era, the "Mad Men’s"office or the director’s “casting couch.” It was a different world, to judge people today for what took place half a century ago is insane in any context! We no longer live in that world. (Unless, of course, you’d like to also memory-hole the careers of at least 6 Presidents!) Another thing to realize is that in those days, horses were not pets–they were just emerging from the era of expendable “using” animals and much more a means to an end than today. Pros in those days did the riding at the high levels, ammies rarely. Rich ammies demanded wins and paid the bills. Pros did what they had to do to win and mostly got away with it. And plenty of officialdom, then as now, was corrupted by said money.

This is going to end up in civil court, and it won’t be pretty.

I don’t think that molesting children was ever OK, even half a century ago.

The “one person fifty years ago” narrative originated in GM’s press release via Phelp’s Media. It may prove to be as viable as the narrative about RG that it was “one almost-legal teen when RG was in twenties.”

[oneequestrienne]

@Peggy

That is my understanding. And the trainer is one that Kristen Hardin mentions in her post as threatening her.

Yup

[Crashing_Boar]

@Peggy

I don’t think that molesting children was ever OK, even half a century ago.

The “one person fifty years ago” narrative originated in GM’s press release via Phelp’s Media. It may prove to be as viable as the narrative about RG that it was “one almost-legal teen when RG was in twenties.”

How many people you think were “carding” their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.

[AllOverFarm]

My comment is regarding, proof or evidence…would SS be able to wire someone to get a taped confession? Just curious because of all the people yelling about needing evidence as proof of the misconduct.

[ladyj79]

Wow. yep, definitely people like 65 lb 11 year olds who couldn’t be penetrated and 13 year old boys who had lost their fathers were confusing to adult men.

Seriously, as with most assaults, the victims were known to these predators.

Dude, take the safe sport training. Learn about grooming.

Read a book, join the world and stop making shit up and introducing stupid strawmen

[ladyj79]

@Crashing Boar

How many people you think were “carding” their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.

forgot to quote. important to remember new old excuses as they get sprinkled.

now these guys were just confused. probably tricked by junior whores.

[dannyboy]

@ Tiramit

I don’t have a good answer for for you, except to say that I’m wiser now than I once was. You have to remember that the first clinic I saw may have been 40 years ago. When he was here and I could afford it, I went and watched. I’ve been to maybe 8-9 of his clinics, but I haven’t been to one for probably 10 years now.

We all put up with a lot of stuff years ago that we wouldn’t now - sexism, racism, you name it - without even being aware of it. I was once let go from a job when it was a choice between me and a guy, because I was “married and had someone to take care of me and he had to support his family.” And I didn’t really see so much wrong with that reasoning back then. It was just the way things were.

I looked up to GM. I watched him ride at Washington and New York. I hero-worshipped him. I got his autograph. I always thought he was mean when he taught, but that was “just George”. I never rode in one of his clinics because I didn’t like that kind of thing, but I guess I figured it was others’ choice if they wanted to. He put his hands on that boy, but that was “just George”. Remember, no one spoke up - it was “just George”. I guess I couldn’t accept that my idol had feet of clay - as a lot of people still can’t. It’s called compartmentalisation.

I learned so much from watching him. I think his cavaletti exercises are great. The step by step way he brought horses along was great. I loved to watch him get on a horse and do flying changes. But eventually, I couldn’t put up with what I finally saw as rampant misogyny and sexism, as well as verbal abuse - and let’s face it, most of what I observed was directed at girls and women, although boys came in for their share also. He was always nice to the men I saw, but those of them I knew were either professionals or wealthy patrons.

George did get less abrasive over time. I didn’t realise until I read it here that his increased niceness coincided with the ability of his audience to record his clinics. Funny, that. My attitude towards him has changed a lot over time as well. I didn’t go to his clinics thinking what an SOB he was. I thought he had a lot of knowledge to impart and I still do. When I finally couldn’t take the bad stuff any more, I stopped going, but I still admire his knowledge.

I read his book, too. It doesn’t show him to be a very nice person, but he’s not my friend, so that doesn’t really matter to me. I admit I skipped over most of the extraneous stuff to read the riding parts. I do want to be clear; I dont’ care how many sexual partners he had (although if there were 10,000 of them, I wonder how he had time for anything else.) I do care if some of them were underage and especially if they were coerced.

[findeight]

@Crashing Boar

How many people you think were “carding” their partners-of-the moment in a drunken haze in 1968? Reality check.

How many 11, 12 and 13 year olds were in a drunken haze? Nobody really cares about consenting adult sex activity at some disco in the 60s.

[Bristol_Bay]

@Bristol Bay

If you factor in bathhouses and other venues for anonymous activity, it’s possible.

@Peggy GMTA!

[poltroon]

@Crashing Boar

THIS^ is the issue. And it scares the living daylights out of anyone who can see the Big Picture. The most recent article on COTH states that GHM was suspended for “Safe Sport violations that allegedly took place between 1968 and 1972.” Huh?

Would one of the attorneys present please explain how one can be held RETROACTIVELY in violation by a group that DID NOT EXIST, would not exist for another 48 years, at the time of the violation?

CONTEXT of those times is everything! ALL of it–the parties and bars, the furtive gay scene, the poling, the dope–people had different issues than today’s mores, surveillance culture and litigious atmosphere. Was a lot of that stuff smart, or nice, or ethical? NO it was not, but please note the context was campus activity in the “Animal House” era, the "Mad Men’s"office or the director’s “casting couch.” It was a different world, to judge people today for what took place half a century ago is insane in any context! We no longer live in that world. (Unless, of course, you’d like to also memory-hole the careers of at least 6 Presidents!) Another thing to realize is that in those days, horses were not pets–they were just emerging from the era of expendable “using” animals and much more a means to an end than today. Pros in those days did the riding at the high levels, ammies rarely. Rich ammies demanded wins and paid the bills. Pros did what they had to do to win and mostly got away with it. And plenty of officialdom, then as now, was corrupted by said money.

This is going to end up in civil court, and it won’t be pretty.

I am going to be really direct here.

First, I don’t know what the accusation is, what the evidence is, and neither do you. But I’m going to lay something out that y’all had better be ready for.

GM says that the accusation is between 1968 and 1972 when he was ~ 30-34 years old. This may or may not be the sum total of evidence or accusation, but I think we can assume it’s at least that.

SafeSport says it is for sexual misconduct with a minor. FWIW we know that is the wording they use whether it is one or many victims. It can be a range of behaviors which they lay out on their website in impressively clinical detail. We also do not know the gender of the minor(s), but I think we can consider it unimportant.

I really don’t give a fig what consenting adults do or did for sex. Legal at the time and place or not. If he went to the bar and had a total orgyfest with strangers, I really don’t care. I also strongly suspect SafeSport doesn’t care.

What I do care about is people using their power to get sex from students and employees and other people under their power. And I care even more about people using it to get sex from a minor. Or, as seems typical when there’s one minor, multiple minors.

I think y’all should consider the extremely strong possibility that the truth here is very ugly, that it could involve a 30+ year old man having sex with children in our sport half his age or less. There is no context or time where that behavior would have been okay. That as these rocks get kicked even uglier behavior will come to light, as it often does in these situations. You may be shocked to learn eventually how many survivors - of this case and others - are people you love, and people you’re hurting right now. And plan what you say, and advocate for, accordingly.

[poltroon]

@ladyj79

Wow. yep, definitely people like 65 lb 11 year olds who couldn’t be penetrated and 13 year old boys who had lost their fathers were confusing to adult men.

Seriously, as with most assaults, the victims were known to these predators.

“Sure, I just coached him in the 14 and under equitation division, but I didn’t know how old he was. How could I have known?”

“And who knew it was even a crime to have sex with 14 year old boys back in 1968? It certainly wasn’t in the USEF rules that you couldn’t do that; how could I have known not to do it?”

… of course he did know the reserpine was against the rules…the rules he was in charge of maintaining… but who could have known he’d be caught? I mean, just because someone tipped him off that there was a test… still!

[Paks]

@Denali6298

Umm so an investigation had been on going without public knowledge. How is that guilty before innocent? Who made stuff up?

Uh so people should only be investigated after they are proven guilty? How would that work?

[Crashing_Boar]

Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person’s alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO’s conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO’s existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man’s suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we’re seeing.

When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.

[ladyj79]

@poltroon

“Sure, I just coached him in the 14 and under equitation division, but I didn’t know how old he was. How could I have known?”

“And who knew it was even a crime to have sex with 14 year old boys back in 1968? It certainly wasn’t in the USEF rules that you couldn’t do that; how could I have known not to do it?”

… of course he did know the reserpine was against the rules…the rules he was in charge of maintaining… but who could have known he’d be caught? I mean, just because someone tipped him off that there was a test… still!

I wish I said all of this, but my head is exploding

[hut-ho78]

If it involves minors or those who were minors at the time then why would anyone feel entitled to the details? If the sports agencies, trainers, and parents were capable of protecting kids then how would the kids be abused. Legally, Lolitas don’t exist. Thank you to everyone posting. I was shocked and confused and I appreciate seeing others were and the explanations of SafeSport procedures. If someone feels strongly that George is innocent and professional then write a letter on his behalf to the appeal process and/or George and/or his attorney. Bashing the one agency with no axe to grind, no history, no bias, no equine goals and the only agency specifically for kids not adults is bizarre. It doesn’t help anyone.

[Denali6298]

@Crashing Boar

Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person’s alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO’s conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO’s existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man’s suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we’re seeing.

When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.

The concept you are failing to grasp is that in many other professions, one can be banned without a criminal conviction. This is the same thing. Professional organizations can and do ban people without a trial. Welcome to the world outside of horses where the majority of us reside.

These due process and constitutional rights arguments are really tiring.

Like @ladyj79 my head is exploding.

[MHM]

@Irish Ei's

I’m simply providing a list of names of members of the page. Period.
…
No, I’m not participating

So you wouldn’t mind if someone posted your name over here as a member of that group, even though you are not participating?

[erinmeri]

@Crashing Boar

Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person’s alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO’s conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO’s existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man’s suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we’re seeing.

When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.

Crashing Boar - Do you take issue with, let’s say, priests being called out and defrocked for assaulting minors 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago? What about private school teachers like the cases that have recently come to light about prestigious East Coast institutions that date back decades? Why should our sport be different?

I am coming back into riding after many years off. I am surprised how not much has changed in all these years from what I see here and on social media. It saddens me to see people I love and trust on the wrong side of this argument. But what saddens me the most is that they often seem to “get it” when similar situations arise in other professional arenas. Why shouldn’t the equestrian world - and specifically, the H/J world - be held to the same standards? It boggles the mind.

[ladyj79]

@Irish Ei's

Katie Prudent, under an alias username

That was hilarious and insane, right?

[Midge]

Does anyone really think this is all about one fellow 50 years years ago???