George Morris on the SS list

[Midge]

@ladyj79

That was hilarious and insane, right?

Paula was a very long time customer/friend and it was clear the message was from Katie. I don’t know why it was done that way, but it’s not like either one was hiding anything.

[Crashing_Boar]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I decided to revisit this gem of a post, even though others did an excellent job of taking you to task, because you initially directed your comments at me.

1. Nothing posted on this thread is opening anyone up to action for slander or libel. George Morris is a public figure. Slander and libel require the post to be false, and have caused him harm… and that bar is high for a public figure.

2. I have an advanced degree and studied macroeconomics in particular. You underlining the word marketplace and your pat attempt to educate me is unnecessary.

3. I made zero arguments with respect to legislating empathy or compassion. Obviously that would be asinine. Take your straw man elsewhere.

4. I am an amateur, and quite clear about that on these forums. So no need for condescending lectures about the upper levels and “what it takes.” I don’t give a shit.

5. I do ride regularly with someone who has competed at the highest levels of eventing successfully for decades. I’ve not wilted yet when dealing with that sort of tough coaching. Nor I have I left the coach crying because of the lack of sugar coating. So no need for condescending lectures on that front either. Or for lectures on danger and margins of error. The “big stix” involved in cross country are a bit more dangerous than the pretty painted obstacles you deal with in the carefully controlled confines of an arena.

6. The top notch, 4* rider, and coach of 4* riders that I know quite well does not engage in petty, abusive bullying with students. Tough? Yes. Have students left after one lesson? Yes. Working students quit early? Yes indeed. But does this coach emotionally, physically or sexually abuse minors or working students over which they wield power!!! Nope. And in case it wasn’t obvious from my participation on this thread and others… I watch for that sort of thing QUITE CAREFULLY. And beyond that… poor horsemanship, and any sort of abuse of a horse in this coach’s barn or program? NOT TOLERATED. Because in addition to being a successful competitor (at the highest levels), and a successful coach, this person is an old school proponent of good horsemanship. And all clients and students better be prepared to treat animals ethically and with care and compassion… or get lost. Same goes for humans.

7. Your comments suggesting I go ask my brothers about topflight programs and coaching in football, and lacrosse, etc, because I need to get a clue about how “tough” it is (and how “empathy” is for peons ;))… well… I chatted with my husband instead. He served 21 years in uniform, has been in multiple combat zones, flown multiple types of aircraft in multiple situations all over the globe, and landed on aircraft carriers (over 300 times), patrolled no fly zones where people on the ground had anti aircraft weapons that were pointed at him, completed jet to jet mid air refueling many many times in a no fly zone operation (trust me… the stakes are a little higher in terms of danger and dollars than those involved in your showjumping example), and oh yeah… also flown to dirt airstrips in god forsaken lawless countries on multiple continents to complete humanitarian missions… which required small teams of guys carrying automatic weapons to protect everyone - the pilot and aircrew and humanitarian teams - because the world is a pretty mean and scary place. And yes indeed… some very very very tough people have lots of empathy and compassion for the helpless souls who live in places like that, and risk life and limb to complete humanitarian missions. Imagine that!

So anyway, I asked my husband if he thought I was just clueless about toughness and what is required to participate in the top levels of sports. Because he’s pretty tough… and knows some REALLY tough people…

he laughed.

”Why are you asking me about this? We both know you are an advanced cancer survivor and what you went through… why are you asking about stupid football coaches and if they’re tough? Dudes like that are just ridiculous immature guys who never got over high school and who can’t hack it in the real world, so they make a habit of bullying high school kids to make themselves feel better. It’s pathetic.”

Hmmm. That was actually on point.

I pushed him a little more though… because I wanted to know about toughness and ELITE people… was empathy just not a thing ELITE people in the military gave a shot about? His response…

“The toughest dudes I know in the military, SEALS and other covert guts who lead spec ops teams into sketchy sketchy places all KNOW that if you scream and belittle and abuse the young inexperienced guys and your other troops know that crap destroys morale in the long run. Low morale is lethal - for you, or your troops, or both. Good leaders don’t bully. They lead and develop their troops.”

So there you go. Get a clue.

Please don’t waste your time taking my posts personally, every one of them is general, none are ad hominem, and all are about matters of the LAW. Because that’s what this is about.

We’re about to find out if CIVIL LAW now allows anyone to accuse anyone of anything, possibly without evidence and from another era in history, which results in destruction of one’s reputation and business without recourse? THAT is what I’m questioning. Your personal experiences are not relevant; the late 60’s show jumping norms have zilch to do with present-day eventing, in case that isn’t obvious. Lots of heat here, not much light.

[anon6003733]

del

[Midge]

Would someone please unpack Kristin’s names and families for me please?

[Seagram]

@erinmeri

Crashing Boar - Do you take issue with, let’s say, priests being called out and defrocked for assaulting minors 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago? What about private school teachers like the cases that have recently come to light about prestigious East Coast institutions that date back decades? Why should our sport be different?

I am coming back into riding after many years off. I am surprised how not much has changed in all these years from what I see here and on social media. It saddens me to see people I love and trust on the wrong side of this argument. But what saddens me the most is that they often seem to “get it” when similar situations arise in other professional arenas. Why shouldn’t the equestrian world - and specifically, the H/J world - be held to the same standards? It boggles the mind.

This!!! That’s what I kept thinking. The priests and churches that backed them for how many decades. GHM is of the same ilk. I feel sick reading all about this, and am so saddened because I did look up to him, thought he was tough, even a bit mean but such an amazing horseman, teacher and rider. Victims deserve to be vindicated.

[anon6923113]

@Crashing Boar

Please don’t waste your time taking my posts personally, every one of them is general, none are ad hominem, and all are about matters of the LAW. Because that’s what this is about.

We’re about to find out if CIVIL LAW now allows anyone to accuse anyone of anything, possibly without evidence and from another era in history, which results in destruction of one’s reputation and business without recourse? THAT is what I’m questioning. Your personal experiences are not relevant; the late 60’s show jumping norms have zilch to do with present-day eventing, in case that isn’t obvious. Lots of heat here, not much light.

Ok - I won’t take what definitely came off as a condescending personal attack personally.

Yes indeed… show jumping in the late 60’s has little to do with eventing. Or the military. So let’s dispense with dramatic talk of high risks, and how toughness is required to rise to the very top.

Destruction of his reputation was well underway decades before this Safe Sport ban. Stories about GM have been out there for YEARS.

Let me me remind you - people repeating these stories verbally or in writing, about a public figure have to be proven to be engaging in deliberate lying with a result of causing quantifiable harm to GM in order for slander or libel to come into play.

So there will be no lawsuit over slander or libel.

As for George’s business… you yourself said his clinics will continue to be full. You are likely correct. Look at Facebook… people LOVE him.

So how is his business destroyed?

So what exactly do you anticipate being an issue involving Civil Law? The guy’s reputation was ALREADY profoundly damaged. His business likely WON’T be greatly impacted.

Do you really think lawyers wanting to challenge Safe Sport are going to use GEORGE MORRIS of all freaking people to make the case that it’s unfair, unconstitutional, and he shouldn’t have been banned for life because there just isn’t enough evidence (by a preponderance of the evidence standard) to prove that he did anything untoward with minors?!?

No lawyer in their right mind will pick him as the client of choice for that argument.

It’s over. He’s done.

[Palm_Beach]

@Crashing Boar

Please don’t waste your time taking my posts personally, every one of them is general, none are ad hominem, and all are about matters of the LAW. Because that’s what this is about.

We’re about to find out if CIVIL LAW now allows anyone to accuse anyone of anything, possibly without evidence and from another era in history, which results in destruction of one’s reputation and business without recourse? THAT is what I’m questioning. Your personal experiences are not relevant; the late 60’s show jumping norms have zilch to do with present-day eventing, in case that isn’t obvious. Lots of heat here, not much light.

Maybe that investigation will also touch on criminal laws about adults having sex with minors? Ima say George Morris is frightened about what will come to light. Ima say he tucks tail and does not pursue this. Ima say we hear about health issues soon.

[Crashing_Boar]

This is still (at least this week, so far!) the USA. One has a right to due process. If someone is being accused of a CRIME (and that’s what this accusation is), they need to file a police report and bring that accusation, the evidence and any corroborating witnesses before a grand jury within the time frame of the statute of limitations in that state. If it’s deemed the accusation is credible, the accused will be arraigned, possibly jailed or bond posted, and the process of preparing for trial begins.

To my knowledge, no other entity or process in our country is empowered to adjudicate and punish CRIME.

[Silk]

@Midge

Would someone please unpack Kristin’s names and families for me please?

OK…I think: the Medall was her maiden name, the Simpson was her first marriage to Will Simpson, the Harding is her latest husband (but no one I have heard of and I dont believe he is an equestrian). I dont know anything about the Ferguson part of her name other than it was her second husband. She has been married three times aand keeps all the names because “they were all long relationships” or something like that

[Denali6298]

@Crashing Boar

Please don’t waste your time taking my posts personally, every one of them is general, none are ad hominem, and all are about matters of the LAW. Because that’s what this is about.

We’re about to find out if CIVIL LAW now allows anyone to accuse anyone of anything, possibly without evidence and from another era in history, which results in destruction of one’s reputation and business without recourse? THAT is what I’m questioning. Your personal experiences are not relevant; the late 60’s show jumping norms have zilch to do with present-day eventing, in case that isn’t obvious. Lots of heat here, not much light.

But that’s not how this happens. You keep spewing this out and it’s so far removed from the truth. Have you ever existed outside the horse world?

[Badger]

Robert Dover is revising his initial comments:

“I now see that I should have stayed to the point I was trying to make regarding Due Process, Transparency, and the Rule of Law, instead of discussing my opinions about George, past history, and context. I wish I had done that as the guilt or innocence of anyone is impossible in certain situations to be positive about but the process is most certainly what I and Packy are deeply concerned about and feel is in need of desperate change.”

https://www.facebook.com/153176321384555/posts/2356629191039246?s=1308808694&sfns=xmo

[Denali6298]

@Crashing Boar

This is still (at least this week, so far!) the USA. One has a right to due process. If someone is being accused of a CRIME (and that’s what this accusation is), they need to file a police report and bring that accusation, the evidence and any corroborating witnesses before a grand jury within the time frame of the statute of limitations in that state. If it’s deemed the accusation is credible, the accused will be arraigned, possibly jailed or bond posted, and the process of preparing for trial begins.

To my knowledge, no other entity or process in our country is empowered to adjudicate and punish CRIME.

Numerous professionals in other areas have actually told you that yes, they can. Take time to read the posts. Broaden your horizons a little beyond horses. Professionals can and do get their licenses revoked without criminal conviction.

[Palm_Beach]

@Crashing Boar

This is still (at least this week, so far!) the USA. One has a right to due process. If someone is being accused of a CRIME (and that’s what this accusation is), they need to file a police report and bring that accusation, the evidence and any corroborating witnesses before a grand jury within the time frame of the statute of limitations in that state. If it’s deemed the accusation is credible, the accused will be arraigned, possibly jailed or bond posted, and the process of preparing for trial begins.

To my knowledge, no other entity or process in our country is empowered to adjudicate and punish CRIME.

You really are not understanding this situation. USEF is a private organization that you voluntarily join. They can make up whatever rules they want and can kick you out. There are no rights involved.

[2bayboys]

@poltroon

I am going to be really direct here.

First, I don’t know what the accusation is, what the evidence is, and neither do you. But I’m going to lay something out that y’all had better be ready for.

GM says that the accusation is between 1968 and 1972 when he was ~ 30-34 years old. This may or may not be the sum total of evidence or accusation, but I think we can assume it’s at least that.

SafeSport says it is for sexual misconduct with a minor. FWIW we know that is the wording they use whether it is one or many victims. It can be a range of behaviors which they lay out on their website in impressively clinical detail. We also do not know the gender of the minor(s), but I think we can consider it unimportant.

I really don’t give a fig what consenting adults do or did for sex. Legal at the time and place or not. If he went to the bar and had a total orgyfest with strangers, I really don’t care. I also strongly suspect SafeSport doesn’t care.

What I do care about is people using their power to get sex from students and employees and other people under their power. And I care even more about people using it to get sex from a minor. Or, as seems typical when there’s one minor, multiple minors.

I think y’all should consider the extremely strong possibility that the truth here is very ugly, that it could involve a 30+ year old man having sex with children in our sport half his age or less. There is no context or time where that behavior would have been okay. That as these rocks get kicked even uglier behavior will come to light, as it often does in these situations. You may be shocked to learn eventually how many survivors - of this case and others - are people you love, and people you’re hurting right now. And plan what you say, and advocate for, accordingly.

What saddens me, and what I think we all need to be prepared for, is that more names are going to come out. More icons of this sport are going to be accused and sanctioned, and some of those icons are going to be those who are truly beloved.

Morris of course has his fanatics, but there are plenty of people who find him despicable because of his very public behavior over many years. It’s easy for some of us to believe these latest accusations because we dislike him already.

But there will be some who will be accused who do not have that underlying seedy or unsavory reputation. I am thinking of two names in particular, names I have always associated with the history of our sport and the gentlemanly manners of southern sportsmen. But I have recently been told of other stories involving these two names, stories that if they are true would certainly warrant a sanction from SafeSport. Stories told by friends of mine who were themselves victims.

There are dark days ahead.

[erinmeri]

@Virginia Horse Mom

The “big stix” involved in cross country are a bit more dangerous than the pretty painted obstacles you deal with in the carefully controlled confines of an arena.

I agree with a lot of what you have said here and on the RG thread, but frankly this is unnecessary. Sure, I don’t ride cross country willingly and never have, but 3 day riders don’t compete at the same height or technicality in show jumping. Do I undermine them? No. Just as many eventers couldn’t get around an open jumper course, many H/J riders couldn’t get around a cross country course. Nobody is “better”. We all face risks and we all face technical challenges. I may be coming back to the sport after years off but I know that. No need to put down others in different disciplines. Frankly it just weakens your argument.

[CatPS]

TLDR. I have found GM to be troubling from the time I was a teenager and told I should idolize him. As an adult I realize why - he behaves like an abuser. Good riddance.

[Capall]

@Denali6298

But that’s not how this happens. You keep spewing this out and it’s so far removed from the truth. Have you ever existed outside the horse world?

BUT HER EMAILS!!! BENGHAAAAAZZZZZIIIIIIIII!!! That’s what this reminds me of.

[ladyj79]

oh by all means, cite packy :lol:

eta as I said earlier, some if these mostly men are going to have a real problem coping with this isn’t George is being targeted because he’s gay, but because he’s a sexual predator who preyed on children.

[ladyj79]

@Midge

Paula was a very long time customer/friend and it was clear the message was from Katie. I don’t know why it was done that way.

my point exactly, it was wacky.

[Midge]

@Crashing Boar

This is still (at least this week, so far!) the USA. One has a right to due process. If someone is being accused of a CRIME (and that’s what this accusation is), they need to file a police report and bring that accusation, the evidence and any corroborating witnesses before a grand jury within the time frame of the statute of limitations in that state. If it’s deemed the accusation is credible, the accused will be arraigned, possibly jailed or bond posted, and the process of preparing for trial begins.

To my knowledge, no other entity or process in our country is empowered to adjudicate and punish CRIME.

You can lose your medical license under almost the exact same procedure as Safe Sport follows.

Gah! Are most horse people completely ignorant of the way the rest of the world works?