George Morris on the SS list

[Gainer]

@dannyboy

You’re correct about McLain’s statement. There was some discussion of it on this thread a while back, but there’s a lot of posts to wade through to find it.
Also let me say that Tom Novarro gave the same tried and true excuse - that he had no idea the girl was underage, she lied to him, etc, etc. I believe she was 14, though. I do think maybe I’ll call Stubben and ask them about their sponsorship of him. It might do some good, although i doubt it.

Funny, the story I heard Navarro passing around was the girl was the daughter of his girlfriend who made up the assault story to get back at him. So he definitely knew how old she was…and he was in his 30s at the time. I can’t figure out how he’s allowed to be around minors at all. I sure wouldn’t let my daughters train/lesson with him.

He’s one of those guys that picks out a vulnerable kid and grooms them. He’s not stupid, just creepy as hell.

[ladyj79]

@fair judy

I do not see this as a refutation
of Safe Sport. In fact there have been changes to accommodate initial issues. Ward is correct in pointing this out while continuing to state how important it is to retain this protection. You can put any spin you like on it as we know you will.

indeed, Judy.

McLain’s statement is full of many of the misdirection and misstatements that are being offered in opposition to safe sport.

Its ok that you don’t agree.

[mvp]

@laiqalasse

two questions.

1. is the US equestrian world aware that Safe Sport deals with more organizations than just the USEF? because they act like they have no idea how big Safe Sport is, or that it oversees MANY sports/organizations.

2. does the US equestrian community realize that out of all the sports Safe Sports is involved with (and has issued bans within), we’re the only ones who actively rally around the people who have been banned and want to dismantle Safe Sport? do they REALIZE how that makes us look? (when things went down in the figure skating world with John Coughlin there were a few people who victim blamed and did the whole “i knew him and he’d never” song and dance, but NOBODY was calling Safe Sport a form of McCarthyism or calling for it to be dismantled)

Well, I have been surprised (and plenty alienated) by the anti-SafeSport stuff I saw from my compatriots in this sport. I saw lots of that on this Forum in the Rob Gage thread and, believe it or not, more civilized discussion on this one. I have some rather classist theories as to why the resistance from our sport has been so strong. I’ll keep those to myself. But! Among the various sports who have had their dirty laundry hung out, I didn’t know we were the singularly flaming a-hole group out there, Not a proud day.

[Texarkana]

@fair judy

I do not see this as a refutation
of Safe Sport. In fact there have been changes to accommodate initial issues. Ward is correct in pointing this out while continuing to state how important it is to retain this protection. You can put any spin you like on it as we know you will.

I have a big problem with anyone who suggests that we should be able to read redacted accounts of alleged sexual misconduct so that we can make our own decisions whether or not to believe the victim.

[hb]

McLain’s statement could be read as though if there were more transparency around the investigation and the allegations, then people would feel differently about rg’s suicide? I don’t read it as him saying rg was innocent, rather that the only info he had before the SafeSport action was that rg was “nice” and more information would be helpful.

It seems that most of the people who want to overhaul SafeSport want to have the details on the accusations and the evidence so they can “decide for themselves how to think”.

I understand wanting to know more details, but we have to respect the privacy of the victims. And also victims will be less likely to come forward if the details of their abuse will be published.

That said, I wish SafeSport was at least able to give enough information to counter gm’s statement that there were only allegations from 50 years ago. Something like “multiple victims over an X year time period”.

Many people are ignoring the fact that “50 years ago” came from gm’s press release, and cannot be verified as the only incidents of abuse. gm shouldn’t necessarily be believed. He has claimed for decades, from atop his high horse, that only classical training methods are worthy and shortcuts are the result of laziness, yet also admits in his book to drugging and poling horses.

Of course, the drugging was on an “iconic” hunter, and iconic horse plus iconic trainer should apparently equal free pass on behavior, at least according to how gm thinks.

[arnikalm]

@Peggy

For context, Mardi’s post was in support of Crashing Boar’s post which said, in part, "Here’s a practical solution for USEF: SS is mandated to apply to “Olympic” sports. Western riding, breed shows, hunters, gaited riding, rodeo, foxhunting, and the SUB-FEI levels of jumping, 3-day, and dressage are only peripherally related to the Olympic movement. Truly “Olympic” level riding involves mere tens of people out of 337 million. Therefore, the USEF should only require the SS compliance for those truly training at the FEI levels;"

USEF is the NGB(*) for equestrian. The NGBs for all Olympic sports are required to abide by Safe Sport. USET(#) tried to be replace AHSA(&) as the NGB but this was not allowed. Ultimately USEF, now USE rose from the flames of that dispute. My recollection is that part of the determination that USET could not be the NGB was that there could be only one national organization associated with an Olympic discipline.

The last time I checked rodeo wasn’t a USEF division, although warm-up rings can resemble one at times.

(*)national governing body
(#)US Equestrian Team
(&)American Horse Shows Association

I love (read that as find it ridiculous and sad) how Crashing Boar and Mardi are all for limiting Safe Sport, which is meant to protect CHILDREN from adults, to only the “mere tens of people” that are actively competing at “truly Olympic level riding”. Apparently the two of them are completely fine with allowing child sexual abuse in the “337 million” other riders at all of the local, state, regional and national levels. Yes, that’s logical.🙄☹😵

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ladyj79

McLain’s statement is full of many of the misdirection and misstatements that are being offered in opposition to safe sport.

Thanks for posting his longer statement again. I had totally forgotten about it. But after you posted it, and I began reading… I remembered.

When he first said that in the wake of the RG situation… I saw several comments praising him for being thoughtful. I personally didn’t think it was a thoughtful statement. It seemed intentionally nebulous and like he was trying to please all sides and say something.

I had forgotten about him doing the Safe Sport videos though. Now that you guys bring that up again… and I read his statement again… I’m a bit more cynical. He’s a pro trying to stand with the other pros making arguments against Safe Sport… without QUITE doing that.

Good that his sponsors told him to be quiet this time. He should.

[ladyj79]

@Pony Fixer

So this is happening. 😡

As I said from the start, he won’t spend his own dime on his defense.

On the one hand it’s gross, on the other hand it is sad for the blah blah blah intersectional stuff I said earlier. But of course, some simply don’t believe, and some don’t care.

[BigMama1]

@Pony Fixer

So this is happening. 😡

Dammit. I used to have so much respect for Robert. If he wants to financially support a friend that’s one thing, but to repeat the lie that GM was banned “without due process” is kind of mindblowing.

[Gainer]

@sixteenhands

Why haven’t you reported this person to authorities or safe sport?
I apologize if you have answered this question already.

Oh honey, he was reported and found permanently ineligible but he’s still at it. I question how much SafeSport really does for the average person. I doubt most people new to the sport would know to check out SafeSport. But silly me, I would expect parents to check out who they’re leaving their children with.

[BLBGP]

@Pony Fixer

So this is happening. 😡

So far it’s only raised $100. Perhaps the ISWG folks don’t really SWG.

[Texarkana]

@ladyj79

indeed, Judy.

McLain’s statement is full of many of the misdirection and misstatements that are being offered in opposition to safe sport.

Its ok that you don’t agree.

He flat out says, “the safe sport policies are broken in their application,” then proceeds to defend his statement with the same misinformation that gets tossed around the internet by those who don’t take 15 minutes to further read about the policies. Due process, they don’t explain how the investigation works, no protection for the accused, yada yada yada.

I don’t know how @fair judy can see that as support for SafeSport. The only thing he supports is the idea that minors do need protection. I can appreciate him acknowledging that abuse is a huge issue in our sport that needs to be stopped, as many want to bury their heads in the sand over that point. But man, I wish he would have spent the time he used to craft that Facebook post to actually read the SafeSport policies.

[ladyj79]

@Texarkana

He flat out says, “the safe sport policies are broken in their application,” then proceeds to defend his statement with the same misinformation that gets tossed around the internet by those who don’t take 15 minutes to further read about the policies. Due process, they don’t explain how the investigation works, no protection for the accused, yada yada yada.

I don’t know how @fair judy can see that as support for SafeSport. The only thing he supports is the idea that minors do need protection.

thanks everyone who isn’t implying I’m just making things up.

eta I bet 50 bucks a working student took the safe sport training module for him

[Pony_Fixer]

@BLBGP

So far it’s only raised $100. Perhaps the ISWG folks don’t really SWG.

It’s been up less than an hour when I saw it. I’ll bet it makes the goal.

[vineyridge]

I’m so tired of uneducated people throwing the term “due process” around. There is no single procedural due process standard. As anybody who can read can tell, due process means the process that is due in any given situation. It can vary according to the situation, with courts having the highest standards, and other government entities being held to lesser standards, unless the higher one has been imposed. Purely private entities aren’t required to provide any at all as “at will” employers know only too well.

McLain Ward’s maunderings about something that he knows nothing about is positively harmful.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

@Pony Fixer

It’s been up less than an hour when I saw it. I’ll bet it makes the goal.

I went to look for it (NOT to donate - just to be clear - was curious what it said about the fundraiser) and its already “ended”. Maybe someone put a bug in Robert Dovers’ ear that perhaps that wasn’t a good idea…

https://www.facebook.com/donate/424306094959224/

[BigMama1]

@Bold MooMoo

Food for thought. In the timeline given, late 60’s thru 70’s Homosexuals were already considered grave perverts and criminals. So in simply being alive George had already committed crimes that were equal in that time to what he is currently being accussed of. Under the age of 18 members of the AHSA, (not the USET or USEF) that have had sex with an older member of the AHSA must number in the thousands. Some eventually married, some had no ‘business’ connection and were simply 2 people, some were raped, some were manipulated. All of these according to SS should lead the over 18 participant to being banned from the USEF. How do fellow members of the USEF feel about this?

How do you figure that? SS is concerned with the protection of minors, not with hunting down people who might have broken a law 40 or 50 years ago. Maybe he used to be a jaywalker too, but that’s not relevant to SS. The fact that their 2-year investigation turned up credible evidence of sexual misconduct with minors is relevant.

[Roser123]

I ride for fun, my daughters ride/rode, and I’ve been getting the next generation up and running, and I feel sick about all that’s transpired in the past month or so.
@Jonathan Hart , I am so sorry for your grief, and that of your family, but the light needs to shine in these dark places so that the sport can go on. There’s no way in H3LL I’d perpetuate my granddaughters riding if I thought that 1) victims (should they ever be one) thought they had no place to speak up 2) No one believed them when they did or 3) Abusers (of ANY AGE) got a pass due to their status, the passage of time, club membership from other trainers, or anything else.
There needs to be a HARD stop. No BNT is above the rules, and no child is unprotected from them. Let the chips fall where they may.
Maybe thinking of this as part of your brother’s tangential purpose in life will be helpful. I apologize that I don’t know (of) him, but participating in making this a safe arena in which all horse loving kids can participate safely is a great legacy, IMHO.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Serious question here…

If it isn’t ok to clinic with someone banned by Safe Sport , and you are at risk for being sanctioned yourself, what about donating money to a legal defense fund for them?!?!

I’m really sick of the bizarre behavior some “professionals” in the horse industry are exhibiting in the wake of recent Safe Sport decisions.

Additionally… I’d really like to know if Robert Dover or Michael Cintas has been contacted by ANYONE at USEF and told to knock this crap off, and get their heads out of their rectums if they ever plan on coaching a US Team again. Maybe Cintas doesn’t fall under USEF though, and actually only answers to the Modern Pentathlon NGO.

I’m not saying that they don’t have a right to free speech… they certainly do. But coaching a US Team is an honor and a privilege, Safe Sport is a US law, and I for one don’t want these guys coaching athletes who represent MY country after seeing their reactions to RG and now GM being set down. Although Cintas’ comments in the NYT were interesting. He did go to live at Hunterdon and train with George PRIOR to Soresi, I believe. As a teenager as well, I think.

[arnikalm]

@kt-rose

I’d like to say something to those who who wonder why we didn’t do anything back then, why we kept quiet and then blame some of us for the ongoing abuse that occurred. I was there. I spent most of my teenage years at Cedar Lodge Farm riding and working both while Victor and Holly Hugo-Vidal were there and after the Reserpine scandal and their move to California.

It was a different time. Not in what was acceptable behavior but in what one might do about it and what people got away with. I was a kid and while I heard all the rumors, saw a lot of horrible treatment of horses and received plenty of warnings, I had no clue what I could or should do. In retrospect, as an adult my understanding of what I saw happening around me leaves me well and truly shaken and there are very few ‘gods’ in the hunter/jumper world I would allow within 100 yards of a horse I owned.

But back to my point…we did do what we thought we could. We moved in packs. We warned each other. There were a variety of people we never left our friends alone with. Our mothers guarded us. I can think of a handful of the top equitation riders of that day whose mothers had eyes on at every moment. My mother could spot a predator a mile away and warned me quite specifically about Jimmy Williams. My mother taught me how to operate safely in the world as it was then as did the mothers of many of my friends. And if things even threatened to go south they stepped in. Not everyone was as fortunate in having a savvy parent watching. But it is how a lot of us got to ride at a fairly high level with those who were considered the best, but stay safe.

We did the best we could to take care of the horses. I personally iced the face of a mare who was subjected to a Chambon made of baling twine. Was pretty sure it or something worse would happen to her again so I bought her and removed her from Cedar Lodge. The scars never went away. The abuse was pervasive. Doing our best was all we thought we could do. We knew enough to know the risks but never enough to report or who to even report to. Because of all I saw, I left that world in the very early 80s for eventing and have never gone back.

So none of this surprises me, it’s about time. And while I have long hoped that many of the ‘great horseman’ of that era learned and actually became great horseman in time, given what I saw back then, they would have to be very different people for it to be true.

I had to quote this as someone who was alive and around at that time. This is the most accurate depiction of how women and children HAD to handle predators back then. Accusations weren’t believed. Police wouldn’t always take a report. Women were legally allowed to be raped by their husbands. Men’s words were worth more than a woman’s, and most certainly more than a child’s. Parents and adults in power were almost never arrested for any form of child abuse at those times, even with the laws on the books.

Younger women and men are often in disbelief when they are told that there was little to no protection for women and children before the 80s, but it’s true.