George Morris on the SS list

[mvp]

@Go Fish

As a retired law professional, this bothers me, too. Any “verdict” is suspect when the arbitrator is not held to the same standard or rule of law as a court would be. People defending this SS process would do well to review history, particularly with regard to the McCarthy era. It raises all sorts of alarm bells for me.

I understand your criticism and your preference for sending all this to the U.S. justice system. But what do you want to do about that institution’s piss-poor track record of achieving justice (and safety and privacy) for victims of sex crimes? If, it turns out, there is more than one cultural institution that can rein in sex abuse, why choose one based solely on the interests of the accused?

[arnikalm]

@ladyj79

forgot to quote. important to remember new old excuses as they get sprinkled.

now these guys were just confused. probably tricked by junior whores.

I just saw this and all I could think of was Roman Polanski. The Hollywood director convicted of rape and sodomy of a 13 year old girl back in the late 60s or early 70s. Wasn’t that his excuse? That he didn’t realize she was 13? And that “everyone” was giving 13 year olds drugs and alcohol to rape them, so why was it a big deal? She was just a whore?
ETA: Btw, as many people have stated, it was illegal 50 years ago to have sex with minors. Proof is Polanski being convicted 50 years ago. So, NO, it wasn’t okay behavior for anyone who wasn’t/isn’t a pervert to prey on children. They are called predators and it has always been wrong.

[fair_judy]

@vineyridge

Was wondering. Is McLain Ward one of the ISWG signatories? I’ve stayed far away from them online.

I have not seen McClain there. He was a vocal supporter of Safe Sport and made a video on it. I admire him more than you can know for that.

[ladyj79]

@fair judy

I have not seen McClain there. He was a vocal supporter of Safe Sport and made a video on it. I admire him more than you can know for that.

He then backed off his support of safe sport after Rob Gage killed himself, saying he’d never met Rob, but never heard anything bad about him so obviously safe sport needed to be overhauled.

[alicen]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Show me a no-name young trainer who gets banned and still manages to achieve financial and reputational success in the h/j world at a serious level. I think it’s highly unlikely to happen, because few parents or horse-owners will send their kid or young hunter/jumper to a trainer who can’t take them to any recognized shows.

Well, then, no-name young trainers will have to choose between self-control of their sexual proclivities or risking their career in the USEF.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fair judy

I have not seen McClain there. He was a vocal supporter of Safe Sport and made a video on it. I admire him more than you can know for that.

That’s really decent of you to point out, Fair Judy.

None of us can choose our family. And people are multifaceted… even abusive ones. Coming to terms with revelations about abuse is a tragic thing for many.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@Denali6298

I see your point but I also think about people like @Sswor who weigh losing their livelihood over speaking out. So my sympathies and I hope any future court ruling would side with the people speaking out over those who commit these atrocities. And sorry one should not be able be a pro working with kids if they commit such crimes.

Yes, I think you are right. (Gasp! Pigs are flying!) I have the impression that the issue of whether USEF functions as a semi-monopoly is only a threshold question to get you in the door-- if it does, the court would then look at the reasonableness of the procedures and punishments. (Fordtraktor may correct me if I have this wrong). And I agree that IF someone is found to be a child predator using fair and careful procedures, it is generally reasonable to ban them from horseshows for life, especially considering there are always tons of unsupervised kids at horseshows.

[arnikalm]

@Crashing Boar

Let me be clear. I am not, anywhere in any post, excusing any person’s alleged CRIMINAL behavior at any time.

What I AM concerned about is extra-judicial NGO’s conducting star-chamber trials without the due process of law to which we are all entitled, making judgments retroactive to a time 48 years before that NGO’s existence. Judgments while technically only relating to membership in a private club, nevertheless have already resulted in one man’s suicide and the pending reputation destruction of another. All without ANY charges ever having been filed against either man with the police over the span of 60-year careers.

At this time NONE of us know what GHM is accused of or by whom. That lack of transparency right there is a serious problem, because it feeds this wildfire social-media gossip mill we’re seeing.

When one is charged with a crime by the police, the specifics of the arrest are a matter of public record, not expressed in vague terms. The accuser might have been 8 years old at the time or one month shy of 18. He might even have lied about his age. Plenty of people did! Once again, CONTEXT MATTERS. But this closed process does not provide sufficient transparency.

You do realize that SS stated “sexual misconduct with a minor”? Hence they investigated and found at least one (if not more) instance credible? That GM is still in contact with many minors? That sexual misconduct with minors was illegal even back 50 years ago? That he most likely would be prosecuted for such actions except that the statute of limitations is barring it? That if he is a child predator he should not be allowed to be training, teaching or judging minors? I am content that a man who has been whispered about for these behaviors for most of his life is finally being called out publicly and hopefully will be prevented from indulging in them for now on. Better late than never. Here’s hoping that every other adult using that power dynamic will undergo the same results.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ladyj79 Oh - just saw your post. If he’s kept quiet in the wake of the GM decision though… that’s noteworthy.

[dannyboy]

You’re correct about McLain’s statement. There was some discussion of it on this thread a while back, but there’s a lot of posts to wade through to find it.
Also let me say that Tom Novarro gave the same tried and true excuse - that he had no idea the girl was underage, she lied to him, etc, etc. I believe she was 14, though. I do think maybe I’ll call Stubben and ask them about their sponsorship of him. It might do some good, although i doubt it.

[ladyj79]

@Virginia Horse Mom

@ladyj79 Oh - just saw your post. If he’s kept quiet in the wake of the GM decision though… that’s noteworthy.

Oh I agree. I imagine the feedback following his Rob Gage statement was stay out of it. McLain rides for other people.

[anon6003733]

del

[fair_judy]

@ladyj79

He then backed off his support of safe sport after Rob Gage killed himself, saying he’d never met Rob, but never heard anything bad about him so obviously safe sport needed to be overhauled.

From his Facebook page

“I hope that Robs [sic] death along with the frankly shocking stories of abuses within our sport align us as a community to pull down the curtain on not only an ugly underbelly of misconduct but the process in which we use to address that conduct.”

[laiqalasse]

two questions.

1. is the US equestrian world aware that Safe Sport deals with more organizations than just the USEF? because they act like they have no idea how big Safe Sport is, or that it oversees MANY sports/organizations.

2. does the US equestrian community realize that out of all the sports Safe Sports is involved with (and has issued bans within), we’re the only ones who actively rally around the people who have been banned and want to dismantle Safe Sport? do they REALIZE how that makes us look? (when things went down in the figure skating world with John Coughlin there were a few people who victim blamed and did the whole “i knew him and he’d never” song and dance, but NOBODY was calling Safe Sport a form of McCarthyism or calling for it to be dismantled)

[ladyj79]

@fair judy

From his Facebook page

“I hope that Robs [sic] death along with the frankly shocking stories of abuses within our sport align us as a community to pull down the curtain on not only an ugly underbelly of misconduct but the process in which we use to address that conduct.”

yep, that’s an except

This is a longer one

Over the last two days I have been following the tragic news of Rob Gages suicide, it’s possible explanation and it’s connection to sexual misconduct (let’s start by calling it what it is) and all of the emotions and opinions regarding Rob as a person and the “Safe Sport” policies. I often think life would be more peaceful, certainly less controversial if I kept my thoughts to myself but that has never been my way. If people like myself within our sport are not willing to at least bring up these conversations for thought, debate and hopefully better solutions than who will. I feel it is our responsibility as persons of influence in our sport and our community to tackle these difficult topics head on and hopefully prevent tragedies like we have now seen on both sides of this issue. Furthermore I chose to participate in a video in support of Safe Sport. I made that choice because I do firmly believe there are many people in our community, not just young people who are vulnerable, and it is our responsibility to continually find ways to offer them support and some protection. I made the choice to participate in that video despite always having some concerns with the implementations of safe sports policies and the possible collateral damage that could be caused by a system that frankly seems to have a lot of holes. The reality is though that it has become very clear over the last decade that abuses have happened, people have been taken advantage of, and terrible assaults have been perpetrated. Some steps had to be taken to protect that segment of our community and hold the perpetrators responsible. People needed to be aware that these abuses were happening and being unreported and ignored. Having a young family myself and being a mentor to many young adults I thought it was important to be supportive of such efforts. Over the last year though I have seen many situations that seemed very unclear, often unfair and certainly questionable in their due process. I also have no doubt that these problems and shortcomings in the safe sport process have adversely effected both the accuser and accused equally. What does seem clear is that the safe sport policies are broken in their application, that very little information regarding cases is made public even in a redacted form so that the community understands better the accusations and the process clearly and very little regard is being given to the effects on the accused life and livelihood before due process is applied. I try to look at this very serious issue from both sides the best that I can. As much as I see holes in the safe sport process and objectives I also think about what if it was my daughter that was abused or taken advantage of. I don’t have the answers but I do think our federation who represents all of us within this sport has to step and be at the forefront of how and when these procedures and policies are implemented. I realize that safe sport is a congressional mandate but that does not mean our representatives can’t be intimately involved and at the forefront of clearly explaining every step of the process and the reasons for the policies with transparency to its membership. As I said in my speech last year at the convention, we need to be not afraid to be the experts of our industry and our sport.

I only knew Rob in a casual manner, and he always seemed like a nice man. I must say that until these recent allegations I had never heard a bad word spoken about him, which is a rarity in our sport and industry. I do not know the particulars about the allegations against him or even who his accusers are, again we as a community have so little information about this somewhat secretive process that we are all in the dark and it is ripe for rumor and innuendo. To be honest most of us have almost no idea how safe sport works, who and where the mandates come from and who is charged with investigating and determining the steps taken. My hope though is that through this incredible tragedy, and the tragedies associated with any abuses perpetrated on anyone that we come together and find a better way to regulate and monitor conduct within our sport. I hope that Robs death along with frankly the shocking stories of abuses within our sport align us as a community to pull down the curtain on not only an ugly underbelly of misconduct but the process in which we use to address that conduct.

McLain Ward

[anon6003733]

del

[Bold_MooMoo]

Food for thought. In the timeline given, late 60’s thru 70’s Homosexuals were already considered grave perverts and criminals. So in simply being alive George had already committed crimes that were equal in that time to what he is currently being accussed of. Under the age of 18 members of the AHSA, (not the USET or USEF) that have had sex with an older member of the AHSA must number in the thousands. Some eventually married, some had no ‘business’ connection and were simply 2 people, some were raped, some were manipulated. All of these according to SS should lead the over 18 participant to being banned from the USEF. How do fellow members of the USEF feel about this?

[fair_judy]

@ladyj79

yep, that’s an except

This is a longer one

Over the last two days I have been following the tragic news of Rob Gages suicide, it’s possible explanation and it’s connection to sexual misconduct (let’s start by calling it what it is) and all of the emotions and opinions regarding Rob as a person and the “Safe Sport” policies. I often think life would be more peaceful, certainly less controversial if I kept my thoughts to myself but that has never been my way. If people like myself within our sport are not willing to at least bring up these conversations for thought, debate and hopefully better solutions than who will. I feel it is our responsibility as persons of influence in our sport and our community to tackle these difficult topics head on and hopefully prevent tragedies like we have now seen on both sides of this issue. Furthermore I chose to participate in a video in support of Safe Sport. I made that choice because I do firmly believe there are many people in our community, not just young people who are vulnerable, and it is our responsibility to continually find ways to offer them support and some protection. I made the choice to participate in that video despite always having some concerns with the implementations of safe sports policies and the possible collateral damage that could be caused by a system that frankly seems to have a lot of holes. The reality is though that it has become very clear over the last decade that abuses have happened, people have been taken advantage of, and terrible assaults have been perpetrated. Some steps had to be taken to protect that segment of our community and hold the perpetrators responsible. People needed to be aware that these abuses were happening and being unreported and ignored. Having a young family myself and being a mentor to many young adults I thought it was important to be supportive of such efforts. Over the last year though I have seen many situations that seemed very unclear, often unfair and certainly questionable in their due process. I also have no doubt that these problems and shortcomings in the safe sport process have adversely effected both the accuser and accused equally. What does seem clear is that the safe sport policies are broken in their application, that very little information regarding cases is made public even in a redacted form so that the community understands better the accusations and the process clearly and very little regard is being given to the effects on the accused life and livelihood before due process is applied. I try to look at this very serious issue from both sides the best that I can. As much as I see holes in the safe sport process and objectives I also think about what if it was my daughter that was abused or taken advantage of. I don’t have the answers but I do think our federation who represents all of us within this sport has to step and be at the forefront of how and when these procedures and policies are implemented. I realize that safe sport is a congressional mandate but that does not mean our representatives can’t be intimately involved and at the forefront of clearly explaining every step of the process and the reasons for the policies with transparency to its membership. As I said in my speech last year at the convention, we need to be not afraid to be the experts of our industry and our sport.

I only knew Rob in a casual manner, and he always seemed like a nice man. I must say that until these recent allegations I had never heard a bad word spoken about him, which is a rarity in our sport and industry. I do not know the particulars about the allegations against him or even who his accusers are, again we as a community have so little information about this somewhat secretive process that we are all in the dark and it is ripe for rumor and innuendo. To be honest most of us have almost no idea how safe sport works, who and where the mandates come from and who is charged with investigating and determining the steps taken. My hope though is that through this incredible tragedy, and the tragedies associated with any abuses perpetrated on anyone that we come together and find a better way to regulate and monitor conduct within our sport. I hope that Robs death along with frankly the shocking stories of abuses within our sport align us as a community to pull down the curtain on not only an ugly underbelly of misconduct but the process in which we use to address that conduct.

McLain Ward

I do not see this as a refutation
of Safe Sport. In fact there have been changes to accommodate initial issues. Ward is correct in pointing this out while continuing to state how important it is to retain this protection. You can put any spin you like on it as I know you will.

[ladyj79]

@Bold MooMoo

Food for thought. In the timeline given, late 60’s thru 70’s Homosexuals were already considered grave perverts and criminals. So in simply being alive George had already committed crimes that were equal in that time to what he is currently being accussed of. Under the age of 18 members of the AHSA, (not the USET or USEF) that have had sex with an older member of the AHSA must number in the thousands. Some eventually married, some had no ‘business’ connection and were simply 2 people, some were raped, some were manipulated. All of these according to SS should lead the over 18 participant to being banned from the USEF. How do fellow members of the USEF feel about this?

hello strawman, please read the thread.

[arnikalm]

"Originally posted by Midge

Paula was a very long time customer/friend and it was clear the message was from Katie. I don’t know why it was done that way."

@ladyj79

my point exactly, it was wacky.

My first thought was so it wouldn’t show up on a google search of her name. But I’m suspicious like that.