George Morris on the SS list

[AllOverFarm]

So many people are shouting about the “ unfairness “ of SS once again, but they only seem to mention it’s unfair to GM. No one seems to care about the others on the SS list. I guess it’s only unfair if your famou.

[2bayboys]

@merrygoround

It has hit National News -Google News-https://www.si.com/olympics/2019/08/05/george-morris-equestrian-coach-ban-sexual-misconduct-allegations

Up til now, I’ve always assumed his relationships were carried on with consenting adults.

I assumed the exact opposite. When I read in his book that he supposedly had 10,000 sexual partners, I remember thinking there was no way all of those were willing, age-appropriate partners.

[boosma47]

SS standards are not the same as the rule of law yet yield tremendous power over those accused. This issue came up with the Gage case and holds true for this and all others. GHM has been accused, judged and sentenced without a trial, without being afforded the right to confront his accuser. This is basic to our system of justice, yet SS seems to have created its own system with the power to ban, ruin, isolate those accused based on unproven allegations. If one has a credible case, bring it before a judge and jury. Don’t hide behind the skirts of SS.

[Palm_Beach]

I am not surprised one bit. As verbally abusive as he was to his students in public, it’s not a stretch to believe he was worse in private. There is an article in a recent Time magazine about Sara Teristi who was abused by Larry Nassar, and also emotionally abused by her coach, John Geddert.

https://time.com/5629228/larry-nassar-victim-speaks-out/

And being nice and helpful to hundreds of people doesn’t cancel the abuse of one.

[mvp]

@HLMom

That was predictable. It should be interesting. We’ll see how many in the hunter/jumper world are really comfortable with the “no statutes of limitations” concept, where it means bringing down the sport’s greatest luminary with 50 year old allegations.

(And please do not misinterpret my comment to mean I think his alleged behavior would be acceptable today or anytime in the last couple decades.)

So… 30 years back would be OK?

Do you have a set of acts of sexual harassment or assault and a time frame for the statute of limitations in mind? When asked to defend those general claims about “different times,” I find it becomes hard to sound credible.

[fair_judy]

@541hunter

A person in power holding career advancement over someone’s head to coerce them into participating in sexual acts is absolutely harassment at the very least, if not rape depending on local laws and the scenario. That’s what your hypothetical situation here is describing - sexual coercion. And the person being coerced is absolutely not at fault, even if they said “yes” under duress.

Every single one of the threads on this topic goes the same way. I don’t mean to single anyone out (despite quoting one person, sorry!!), and I hope I don’t sound too uncivil. But I do wish more people on this forum and in the wider horse world were a bit better educated on the topic of sexual misconduct. It’s exhausting trying to kindly redirect people but for whatever reason I feel obligated.

Reposting this because it is perfect.

[mvp]

@boosma47

SS standards are not the same as the rule of law yet yield tremendous power over those accused. This issue came up with the Gage case and holds true for this and all others. GHM has been accused, judged and sentenced without a trial, without being afforded the right to confront his accuser. This is basic to our system of justice, yet SS seems to have created its own system with the power to ban, ruin, isolate those accused based on unproven allegations. If one has a credible case, bring it before a judge and jury. Don’t hide behind the skirts of SS.

Had the justice system done an adequate job of prosecuting sex crimes, I’ll bet we wouldn’t have SafeSport today.

Do you have anything better than a failed justice system or Safe Sport to offer victims of sexual harassment or assault, or do you think that the justice system is unimpeachable such that if you find yourself being the wrong color, gender, age or victim of the wrong kind of crime you are just SOL? I don’t see how Justice (the concept, not the institutional system) ought to work differently for different classes of people.

[Tackpud]

Here is a flow chart of how accusations are handled for all those saying there is no process and anyone accused is immediately banned. A lifetime suspension from the sport is quite far down the route that leads to resolutions. SS is not putting anyone in jail - it’s just not allowing them to participate in a club.

Direct link https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-…-Process-2.pdf

[ladyj79]

Oh good, Robert Dover has weighed in to say that he stands with George because George didn’t molest one specific guy he asked…

[fair_judy]

I will wait for the appeal. The “ we all heard whispers” group should do so also. There is far too much HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW ( fill in the blank) going on here. If people have certain knowledge of abuse, no matter the time period, report.

[Moesha]

@ladyj79

There are multiple people saying she, which really helps to demonstrate how people who don’t know someone at all, like really basic public knowledge, feel free to voice their insanely wrong and ignorant opinions. Like, you don’t know George Morris is gay, I’m confused how you even know who he is then.

This

[boosma47]

@mvp

Had the justice system done an adequate job of prosecuting sex crimes, I’ll bet we wouldn’t have SafeSport today.

Do you have anything better than a failed justice system or Safe Sport to offer victims of sexual harassment or assault, or do you think that the justice system is unimpeachable such that if you find yourself being the wrong color, gender, age or victim of the wrong kind of crime you are just SOL? I don’t see how Justice (the concept, not the institutional system) ought to work differently for different classes of people.

[MyssMyst]

I don’t think the justice system is perfect. FAR from it. But the reasons behind the statute of limitations are valid, and most states do up the limit when there’s DNA evidence involved. Victims deserve to be heard, but I also respect the right of the accused to be able to defend themselves. The evidence degrades in quality the longer you get from an incident, which impacts both sides. What is considered credible on the Safesport side? Are they going with body of evidence? A certain number of people who come forward?

I think we would have been better suited by victim advocacy within the justice system and making thata system that can really work for victims. Athletes aren’t the only children we should be protecting. What about the foster kid who stays quiet because they don’t know what else to do?

I GET that sports and jail aren’t the same thing, I do. But I think our justice system has some things really right, and they should be a starting point.

[tabula_rashah]

GM is an unholy a$$hat and there’s is very little doubt in my mind that he did it.

However still not a fan of Safe Sport at all

[boosma47]

Was the justice system utilized in this case, or in any of the other cases? That is my point. There are obvious weaknesses in the system, as in all systems, foremost of which is the political corruption that inevitably sets in when the ideal is blind justice. When you point out the unfairness to groups, you are correct, but it doesn’t make following the rule of law any less essential. Corrupt judges are always politically motivated regardless of their idealogy. I suspect SS is equally unfair in that it appears to favor the victim at the cost of the accused without seeking a balanced opportunity to seek truth. Is GHM guilty? We will never know for certain. We may have suspicions. But we, the public, have the right to know, a right only possible through a public trial. SS does not provide that. If a victim is willing to bring charges, let them be made before a judge and jury.

[anon99446150]

Admittedly haven’t read the entire thread but worth noting that this story has also hit the NYT and the reporter who broke it said on her twitter that she has been running an investigation separate from SafeSport and that there was a more in depth story to come.

[ladyj79]

I realize it’s wrong to wish people could be prohibited from posting about safe sport who have either no idea how the process works or have an alterior motive for feigning ignorance in order to spread msinformation…but I still wish it.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Tackpud

SS is not putting anyone in jail - it’s just not allowing them to participate in a club.

Let’s not pretend that a SafeSport ban isn’t going to have huge and devastating effects on a person’s life and livelihood … it’s more than just being excluded from the country club.

As it well should be, if the person in question is a predator and an ongoing threat… they’ve brought the consequences upon themself.

[Denali6298]

@MyssMyst

I don’t think the justice system is perfect. FAR from it. But the reasons behind the statute of limitations are valid, and most states do up the limit when there’s DNA evidence involved. Victims deserve to be heard, but I also respect the right of the accused to be able to defend themselves. The evidence degrades in quality the longer you get from an incident, which impacts both sides. What is considered credible on the Safesport side? Are they going with body of evidence? A certain number of people who come forward?

I think we would have been better suited by victim advocacy within the justice system and making thata system that can really work for victims. Athletes aren’t the only children we should be protecting. What about the foster kid who stays quiet because they don’t know what else to do?

I GET that sports and jail aren’t the same thing, I do. But I think our justice system has some things really right, and they should be a starting point.

Why are you bringing up foster kids unrelated to the USEF? Also, IF the allegations are from 50 years ago DNA tests weren’t admissible in court until the mid 80’s. The technology back then isn’t what it is today.

If you PM @FiSk123 they can explain in detail how the process works.

[BK6756]

@ladyj79

I realize it’s wrong to wish people could be prohibited from posting about safe sport who have either no idea how the process works or have an alterior motive for feigning ignorance in order to spread msinformation…but I still wish it.

I too wish everyone would read the actual FACTS about the safe sport process and the previous threads before making the same comments that have been rehashed ad nauseum.