George Morris on the SS list

[Irish_Ei_s]

Taking a break, my next love, the arts, just erupted.
Placido Domingo and Broadway producers nailed to the wall today.

Wondering if Epstein’s list set off the FBI…

[Peggy]

@BigMama1

Who is Sara Cavanagh (the editor) and why is she so badly misinformed about how SafeSport works?

I have no idea, but if you scroll down this web page, there is a bio:
http://thehorseofdelawarevalley.com/about

[roseymare]

I just read through the comments on the change.org petition. Do these people have any clue? Or want to have one? All this due process and constitutional rights jabber.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Crashing Boar

Obviously, and goes without saying. My hope is that when it all comes out in the wash, the finding will be that GHM’s relationship was with someone of the age of consent, who consented. I honestly don’t think the man is STUPID enough to have raped a 13-year old. Just because someone was a live-in student, it does not automatically follow that he was being predated at age 13 by George. My hope is that he was 16 plus. I make no apologies whatsoever for pedophilia.

A reminder: As of now no one but SS knows and they aren’t saying.

What I DO know is that on FB and IRL an impressive list of horse pros of stature have put their names (and therefore reputations and businesses) on the line coming out in public defense of George. People who’ve known him personally all their lives and worked alongside him all the way back to that time, vs.concern trolls who have no connection whatsoever.
To me, that speaks volumes, and drove my insufficient attempt to provide a more balanced perspective here.

Loads of people with reputation (Traurig, etc) spoke up in support of Rob Gage… WHO HAD WRITTEN A CONFESSION TO ONE OF HIS VICTIMS which was used in the investigation against him. Who had at least a handful of women speak publicly about their ages and what occurred.

Again I’m not here saying that he’s guilty or not because it’s not my place to say. But if “statute of limitations” is all you have to hang your hat on, and if intimidating people and “taking down everyone” is your Alamo… it’s not looking pretty.

[Zirgs]

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

[Texarkana]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

Regarding your allegedly innocent friend:

The claimant is subject to SafeSport disciplinary action for making false claims and withholding evidence. If you are a USEF member, you have a responsibility to report such information if you know it to be true. If you’re not, I suggest you still do so anyway.

SafeSport tried to build in checks and balances for situations like you describe, but they are only as good as the members who provide information.

Just like many victims have been blamed for “not coming forward,” people with information that would exonerate the allegedly innocent need to do the same.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

So… you would send your kids to train with a BNT who has been sanctioned for sexual misconduct, if you were informed and allowed to? Presumably because you feel you cannot get better quality instruction from someone who doesn’t abuse their power over children? Or only because you THINK you know what they did, and you believe it was too long ago, or not severe enough to damage someone?

Read that again because it sounds like you’d put your kids in harm’s way for a bloody blue ribbon.

That’s just about as bad as “Well he didn’t molest MY kid so he must be ok!” It makes my head explode why anyone feels the need to give money to someone who consciously and willingly hurts people.

[Palm_Beach]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

No one is stopping you from hiring child molesters to give your kids riding lessons. They’ll just have to stick to the non affiliated local circuits. Have fun!

[dannyboy]

check Zirgs join date. Can you say ‘troll’?

ETA: and @Zirgs If you ‘know’ one of the banned trainers is innocent, it’s your duty to go to SafeSport and present your case. Good luck.

[chisamba]

@pds

Makes me sad and sick to note the names of riders and trainers I formally respected that have shown they support child sexual abuse by attacking SafeSport and individuals.

I can only hope that one day their hearts and minds open up to the truth. Just hope it is not too late for them all.

Totally!!

[fordtraktor]

@poltroon

USEF has no leeway in this. It is baked into the SafeSport law and code. All the NGBs are obligated.

Whether or not it holds up in court, it will be SafeSport’s to litigate. See Page 15.

https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019-SafeSport-Code-04.15.19-Hyperlinked.pdf

(As to who they’d go after, I imagine they’d be starting with letters of reprimand and their actions would probably be contextual. The old friend who goes and rides a horse with a suspended person in the vicinity is probably not going to get the same treatment as someone who hosts an equitation clinic for juniors. They’re busy folk, alas. But they might go after an elite figure skating athlete, say, who made known he was training with BNT, and was encouraging others to do so. However, insurance companies may put the kibosh on all of it of their own accord.)

It is meant, explicitly, to end the influence of big name coaches who are found to have created dangerous conditions for athletes. People like Don Peters, who also helped win a lot of (gymnastics) Olympic medals. BNTs that a lot of people would justify training with. The intent is super clear.

You can’t hire a doctor for your practice or hospital who loses a license, either.

I enjoy the lawyer talk but I’m a little surprised at this particular line you’re taking.

Thanks, you are right. I hadn’t gone and read those rules. Looks like USEF has nothing to say about it, then, but it does make the antitrust case stronger. Interesting!

[ladyj79]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

you are an unserious person.

[Jenerationx]

@Palm Beach

No one is stopping you from hiring child molesters to give your kids riding lessons. They’ll just have to stick to the non affiliated local circuits. Have fun!

:applause:

@Zirgs How exactly do you KNOW a banned trainer is innocent? Did you have surveillance on them 24/7? If not, then you don’t know. You choose to not believe the results of the SS investigation. If you choose to send your child to that trainer and they are abused, how are you going to feel? But hey, I guess SS should just butt out and allow parents to make that choice. Just pray your kid isn’t a mess in 20 years and finally discloses to you that the shady trainer violated them. :no:

[chisamba]

@mvp

It’s pretty easy for me: I don’t reward unconscionable behavior. Full stop.

Look, I haven’t been in a spot where I desperately needed the help of Paul Valliere or where George Morris was the only horseman who could help me. But I think it’s part of being an adult to take the action I can to defend my values. So there is no weighing the pros and cons in my mind. I am clear about that stopped wildly unethical behavior (or doing my part in that) trumps my wanting to get something related to my sport. I’ll find another way or I’ll go without. But I won’t co-sign killing horses for insurance money or molesting children so that I can have fun. Not a hard decision.

To be honest, I dont think I could attend a Robert Dover clinic or any of the big name slime balls sucking up to GM after this.

[mvp]

@alibi_18

This, as @Capall like to say, atrocious petition found its way on my Facebook feed, shared by riders I used to respect.

It’s a shame.

Yanno, that’s how I know who’s who and where the people in my life stand.

I think it’s time to let my FB friends know that they can stand with George or they can stand with me, but not both. They can GTFO of my life if they want. I don’t see the pay-off to remaining friends with folks who wish to stand in the way of cleaning up the most horrific and dark back bedroom of our sport and industry.

I’m not interested in reputations or statuses of any of the BNTs who have gotten caught with their pants down, so to speak. What does disturb me about the ISWG crowd is the ill-informed conviction that SafeSport isn’t worth trusting or defending. While it’s fine to critique and improve, I don’t see any of these folks 1. offering a better solution; and 2. bothering to educate themselves enough to possibly devise a better process. And that’s the height of a form of callousness and elitism that’s peculiar to modern Americans. I think these folks have been wrapped in easy privilege for so long (including the scapegoating of victims of sex crimes or taking an uncritical, non-factual view of history), that they can’t find a reason to think carefully or empathetically about the problem of reining in the predators amidst our ranks.

[Mia_Sorella]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

The whole point of an independent, unbiased body is to provide checks and balances when otherwise well meaning people lose perspective and overlook the possibility that someone close to children may have motivation for being there that is completely unrelated to your child’s best interests.

When I shared my story earlier in this thread re: competitive dance, I in no way, shape or form meant to imply I had bad or negligent parents. Quite the opposite actually. But when you’re in an environment that is a direct pipeline for future professionals, where your child has been identified as one of the best of the best and people are constantly reinforcing your child’s potential and clamouring to give him/her opportunities, it’s easy to overlook the red flags or give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe you or your child misunderstood what happened.

Both of my parents worked full time. In order to give me the opportunities that they did, they couldn’t be there with me every minute of every day. Had SafeSport existed at the time I was a child in that environment, I would like to think that at least one person might have taken a step back, asked WTF??? is going on here and advocated for the kids. What decent, healthy grown man with any sense of appropriateness whatsoever, wants to surround himself with little kids, often wearing the equivalent of underwear, and encourage them to gyrate or touch themselves on stage in front of hundreds of people? Let that sink in for a minute. I wish someone’s dad taking pictures of me was the worst of my problems back then.

[OneGrayPony]

@BigMama1

2. They apparently have evidence of misconduct as far back as 50 years and as recently as the 1990s.

I hate to bring this up, and this is no defense of George, but the 1990s were still 25-30 years ago, as evidenced by my upcoming high school reunion :lol:

We don’t mind the Nazi going to trial after so many years because there is no statute of limitations on murder, but sexual crimes do in most states. Not saying it’s right, just stating a fact.
https://www.rainn.org/state-state-gu…es-limitations

I suspect that there will be increased pressure to change these types of laws now that more egregious behavior is coming to light. Like it or not, society has changed dramatically even in the time that I’ve been alive WRT the acceptability of certain behavior. Doesn’t make it right, not saying that, just saying that there was a different standard, even in the 90/s. Watch some 90s commercials where teens as young as 12 were highly sexualized as models. Brooke Shields is an example. https://www.theguardian.com/theguard…ild-photograph

Of course, that was just for girls, sexualizing young boys hasn’t been normalized since the Romans.

Our society is shifting, and I’m glad of it, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that some would be struggling to adjust, not just because GM is a hero, in their eyes but also because attitudes were different when they grew up. Epstein’s parties that he is being (now posthumously) jailed for? That behavior was so normalized in the modeling world that it was just part and parcel of becoming one.

I’m still glad they’ve chosen to set down GM and others as it is necessary for things to get better as a society. It’s just a painful change for some people so the outcry is expected. I don’t think it necessarily means that they are awful people, but rather people do adjust slowly to “newer” social ideas.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@OneGrayPony

I hate to bring this up, and this is no defense of George, but the 1990s were still 25-30 years ago, as evidenced by my upcoming high school reunion :lol:

We don’t mind the Nazi going to trial after so many years because there is no statute of limitations on murder, but sexual crimes do in most states. Not saying it’s right, just stating a fact.

I will repeat again… there is NO statute of limitations for criminal charges of sexual abuse in NJ.
As of December 1, the statute of limitations for civil cases is changed to victim turning 55 or 7 years after their knowledge, whichever comes later. Hunterdon was located in NJ. So if these incidents happened at Hunterdon 20 years ago, the victims are not 55 yet. Also other states have or are removing the statute of limitations.

[BigMama1]

@Zirgs

The fundamental question is how best to deal with sexual abuse and the long needed cultural change. For generations victims were oppressed by both the abuser and society.

As an engaged parent that raises our kids to be empowered, I am horrified by SafeSports current codes and processes.

While they have honorable Mission and Values, their authoritarian dictation of whom I can choose to train with, and associate my children and resources, so they can be athletes and participate in the sport they love is going down the path of dictatorship.

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

Raising awareness is good.

Stripping away the right to choose who should run a business and associate with harms all of us.

Those that are at most risk, are those that post negative stories and comments about others in these forum, regardless if you think they are true. That behavior is considered bullying, and becomes grounds for reporting to SafeSport.

I personally know that one of the banned trainers is innocent, and the key witness 20 yrs ago witheld evidence in the form of video surveillance tapes, which would have exonerated them. Since the staue of limitations is expired, the ability to correct a past ruling will be hard. So instead an innocent person is banned, and this forum is not only bashing them, but hunting to strip them of their business associates.

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

WTF? I didn’t realize that training with sexual predators was a constitutional right lol. If you want to send your kids to train with accused sexual predators, that’s entirely up to you. Those trainers (and you by extension) just can’t compete in USEF shows. Your choice, your right. But honestly, WTF?

[OneGrayPony]

@Keep it Simple

I will repeat again… there is NO statute of limitations for criminal charges of sexual abuse in NJ.
As of December 1, the statute of limitations for civil cases is changed to victim turning 55 or 7 years after their knowledge, whichever comes later. Hunterdon was located in NJ. So if these incidents happened at Hunterdon 20 years ago, the victims are not 55 yet. Also other states have or are removing the statute of limitations.

Read my post again. The whole thing please. That’s exactly what I said, barring your quite incorrect statement that NJ has eliminated the statute of limitations on sexual crimes. Here are the details on that https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-crime-definitions.cfm?state=New%20Jersey&group=7&_ga=2.134024780.392668385.1565783180-1948266650.1565783180 as it depends on the crime.

I was not, and am still not, defending GM.

I was explaining that I have empathy for people struggling to adjust.