George Morris on the SS list

[BigMama1]

@OneGrayPony

I hate to bring this up, and this is no defense of George, but the 1990s were still 25-30 years ago, as evidenced by my upcoming high school reunion :lol:

We don’t mind the Nazi going to trial after so many years because there is no statute of limitations on murder, but sexual crimes do in most states. Not saying it’s right, just stating a fact.
https://www.rainn.org/state-state-gu…es-limitations

I suspect that there will be increased pressure to change these types of laws now that more egregious behavior is coming to light. Like it or not, society has changed dramatically even in the time that I’ve been alive WRT the acceptability of certain behavior. Doesn’t make it right, not saying that, just saying that there was a different standard, even in the 90/s. Watch some 90s commercials where teens as young as 12 were highly sexualized as models. Brooke Shields is an example. https://www.theguardian.com/theguard…ild-photograph

Of course, that was just for girls, sexualizing young boys hasn’t been normalized since the Romans.

Our society is shifting, and I’m glad of it, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that some would be struggling to adjust, not just because GM is a hero, in their eyes but also because attitudes were different when they grew up. Epstein’s parties that he is being (now posthumously) jailed for? That behavior was so normalized in the modeling world that it was just part and parcel of becoming one.

I’m still glad they’ve chosen to set down GM and others as it is necessary for things to get better as a society. It’s just a painful change for some people so the outcry is expected. I don’t think it necessarily means that they are awful people, but rather people do adjust slowly to “newer” social ideas.

The idea that sexually abusing minors is abhorrent is not a “new” social norm.

[Midge]

@Zirgs

Under the good intention to protect, SafeSpot strips away that which enables all of us to be empowered - Choice.

So when a doctor loses his license to practice, you would prefer to just know, not have him lose his right to practice.

[Midge]

@dannyboy

check Zirgs join date. Can you say ‘troll’?

ETA: and @Zirgs If you ‘know’ one of the banned trainers is innocent, it’s your duty to go to SafeSport and present your case. Good luck.

A different opinion is not a troll.

[ladyj79]

Nope, not necessarily a troll. But definitely defending a convicted child molester because lying b*tches, ya know.

[bip]

@Zirgs

We officially live in Orwell’s 1984

It is definitely 1984 if banning pederasts and child molesters from sport is considered infringement on choice.

Normally I love irony, but I have little kids so this isn’t really funny to me.

[bip]

@Midge

So when a doctor loses his license to practice, you would prefer to just know, not have him lose his right to practice.

I assumed he meant we would all be deprived of choosing to use an unlicensed doctor?

[RainWeasley]

I’m a couple of pages behind, but I had to say something about the editor’s response to the letter to the editor…

The way SafeSport operates, someone could accuse anyone of bullying or having sex with a minor - and they wouldn’t even know it until they found out that they were banned for life and their careers destroyed.

This is probably the stupidest statement. If they were banned for life and their careers destroyed, that means that obviously they were found to have been bullying or having sex with minors…in which case, they absolutely should be banned and have their career destroyed, and I don’t really care if they knew about it or not (which they did). I don’t get why people are clinging on so hard to their false ideas that SS is banning people on simple accusations. I mean, jeez, if that was all they did, the ban list would be like half of the equestrian world, there are a lot of vindictive people out there.

Typical example of people not listening to the explanations of how they are wrong at all or even considering how logistically improbable it is, sticking their fingers in their ears while they continue to spout the same false facts over and over as if that will make them true.

[Zirgs]

@Mia Sorella

The whole point of an independent, unbiased body is to provide checks and balances when otherwise well meaning people lose perspective and overlook the possibility that someone close to children may have motivation for being there that is completely unrelated to your child’s best interests.

When I shared my story earlier in this thread re: competitive dance, I in no way, shape or form meant to imply I had bad or negligent parents. Quite the opposite actually. But when you’re in an environment that is a direct pipeline for future professionals, where your child has been identified as one of the best of the best and people are constantly reinforcing your child’s potential and clamouring to give him/her opportunities, it’s easy to overlook the red flags or give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe you or your child misunderstood what happened.

Both of my parents worked full time. In order to give me the opportunities that they did, they couldn’t be there with me every minute of every day. Had SafeSport existed at the time I was a child in that environment, I would like to think that at least one person might have taken a step back, asked WTF??? is going on here and advocated for the kids. What decent, healthy grown man with any sense of appropriateness whatsoever, wants to surround himself with little kids, often wearing the equivalent of underwear, and encourage them to gyrate or touch themselves on stage in front of hundreds of people? Let that sink in for a minute. I wish someone’s dad taking pictures of me was the worst of my problems back then.

Aug. 14, 2019, 07:33 AM
About George Morris on the SS list Mia Sorella
I am sorry to hear about your abuse. I have a MSW degree and have been the first to tell a young adult and child that their abuse was not their fault. I have had some vomit on me, as they expel the horrors of their abuse. There is no excuse to abuse.

Society has oppressed these conversations, thus children were not empowered to speak. It is the silence that has allowed abuse to fester and not allow closure.

It is good that we speak openly and constructively.

However, to dictate to me whom I am allowed to work with and select for my children is just as abusive.

In healthcare several decades ago maternal and child death rates at birth were very high. Rather than fine hospitals and dictate solutions, hospitals were required to publically post their Birth Vitals and Statistics. As parents were empowered to choose where to deliver their children, hospitals responded to fix problems. The medical specialty of OBGYN, Prenatal Care and NICU spawned from the posting of performance.

Tranaparency and education are constructive mechanisms to make lasting change.

Dictating and stripping parents of their rights to choose harms all of us and violates our freedoms.

[Midge]

@ladyj79

Nope, not necessarily a troll. But definitely defending a convicted child molester because lying b*tches, ya know.

No doubt!

[Midge]

@bip

I assumed he meant we would all be deprived of choosing to use an unlicensed doctor?

Hey, because we should all get to choose. I mean, why license doctors anyway?

[OneGrayPony]

@BigMama1

The idea that sexually abusing minors is abhorrent is not a “new” social norm.

Again, I beg to differ, as the definition of sexual abuse has shifted as well in the common vernacular.

We now understand grooming, which we (as a society) didn’t when Lolita was a popular movie.

Rape, a violent crime, of female adults was way more normalized - take a look at movies where a teen loses her virginity at a party while drunk and how they were treated then in pop culture vs now. It was viewed that young women were more desirable than older women by men (which is why there is a whole “underage” genre of porn).

It also does make a difference as to whether the victim was female or male as to how it was thought about, and a teen vs 10, which is why people were way more freaked out about Sandusky than other cases which haven’t even come to trial yet.

As a young model my parents warned me about what to expect from adult men. It was that commonplace that they were undecided about whether they wanted me to participate and my parents were really progressive for the time.

One more time for the people in the back, i think this is a GOOD change - those things really weren’t ok then and they aren’t ok now, but they were attitudes that many grew up with. The outcry is just that, people struggling to adjust to new normals.

I still think SafeSport was RIGHT to set down GM the same way I think it is right for other people to be prosecuted for things that have shifted in society. It’s necessary for the shift to occur, the same way that forgiveness of the Nazi really isn’t possible, even though the person’s actions were not “different” than others in their culture at that time.

If we ignore these cultural attitudes we sound silly to people who were there - we can’t whitewash history that way. But what we can say is, you’re right, things were different. But just because they were different doesn’t mean it was ever truly right to do x y and z. This helps us when we need to move the next thing forward, or act in the face of “normalcy” around us.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Zirgs

Aug. 14, 2019, 07:33 AM
About George Morris on the SS list Mia Sorella
I am sorry to hear about your abuse. I have a MSW degree and have been the first to tell a young adult and child that their abuse was not their fault. I have had some vomit on me, as they expel the horrors of their abuse. There is no excuse to abuse.

Society has oppressed these conversations, thus children were not empowered to speak. It is the silence that has allowed abuse to fester and not allow closure.

It is good that we speak openly and constructively.

However, to dictate to me whom I am allowed to work with and select for my children is just as abusive.

In healthcare several decades ago maternal and child death rates at birth were very high. Rather than fine hospitals and dictate solutions, hospitals were required to publically post their Birth Vitals and Statistics. As parents were empowered to choose where to deliver their children, hospitals responded to fix problems. The medical specialty of OBGYN, Prenatal Care and NICU spawned from the posting of performance.

Tranaparency and education are constructive mechanisms to make lasting change.

Dictating and stripping parents of their rights to choose harms all of us and violates our freedoms.

Are you suggesting each trainer should come with a number of how many kids they diddled over a lifetime and there’s some arbitrary number that is okay and that is not with you? I think the point is here that ONE is too many, and it’s in the best interests of ALL THE OTHER KIDS to keep these people away from kids if they’re deemed a threat to the kids’ physical/mental well-being.

Again as people have pointed out, YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE- you can choose to continue to patronize the businesses of people who are in the sport for the wrong reason. Vote with your wallet and leave USEF, that is absolutely a choice you are capable of making without repercussion.

Anyone else feel awful that the unrated circuits will be the receptacle of some absolute human garbage? They don’t deserve that.

Edit to add: I didn’t think I’d see a different argument against Safe Sport come up with all the squawkers having a hive mind. But this person has changed that opinion. Actually stunned.

[anon6923113]

@Zirgs - there is one person on the list who was charged about 20 years ago with 3rd degree sodomy in another state for an incident involving a 14 year old girl when he was 30. Navarro. He plead guilty.

I’m assuming that is who you are speaking of since you also discussed this persons business contacts being aired out on this thread, etc.

Navarro does not have a good reputation locally. It’s not just a matter of his inclusion on the Safe Sport list. Multiple people have shared stories of resume inflation. I’ve heard multiple stories of poor conditions at the farm and poor horsemanship. In addition to that, his bio has details that simply do not come across as credible. It’s not just the people posting on this forum who think so.

As far as surveillance tapes from 20 years ago exonerating him… really? Have you seen them? Or were you told this by… the guy who pleaded guilty?

Predators lie. It’s what they do. Routinely. There are plenty of liars in the horse would, who don’t have a record for a sex crime involving a minor… but are still dirtbags and liars, and all about hustling for a buck.

Be careful. Some of these people are charming and really seem lovely with kids.

[ladyj79]

@Midge

Hey, because we should all get to choose. I mean, why license doctors anyway?

I just use my barber who is also a dentist and a doctor. Because it’s the frontier, and it’s 1880.

[Bluey]

@OneGrayPony

I hate to bring this up, and this is no defense of George, but the 1990s were still 25-30 years ago, as evidenced by my upcoming high school reunion :lol:

We don’t mind the Nazi going to trial after so many years because there is no statute of limitations on murder, but sexual crimes do in most states. Not saying it’s right, just stating a fact.
https://www.rainn.org/state-state-gu…es-limitations

I suspect that there will be increased pressure to change these types of laws now that more egregious behavior is coming to light. Like it or not, society has changed dramatically even in the time that I’ve been alive WRT the acceptability of certain behavior. Doesn’t make it right, not saying that, just saying that there was a different standard, even in the 90/s. Watch some 90s commercials where teens as young as 12 were highly sexualized as models. Brooke Shields is an example. https://www.theguardian.com/theguard…ild-photograph

Of course, that was just for girls, sexualizing young boys hasn’t been normalized since the Romans.

Our society is shifting, and I’m glad of it, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that some would be struggling to adjust, not just because GM is a hero, in their eyes but also because attitudes were different when they grew up. Epstein’s parties that he is being (now posthumously) jailed for? That behavior was so normalized in the modeling world that it was just part and parcel of becoming one.

I’m still glad they’ve chosen to set down GM and others as it is necessary for things to get better as a society. It’s just a painful change for some people so the outcry is expected. I don’t think it necessarily means that they are awful people, but rather people do adjust slowly to “newer” social ideas.

Expanding on this, once I had time to think past the obvious abuse.

Humans are all about looking for help, looking for those that can help us do any we do better, looking up to our parents, other family and friends and mentors.
Just anyone that can help us better ourselves and give us validation that we matter and/or can do what we are doing, here just being around to us glorious horses we adore, or even riding and showing horses.

Being considered someone’s “underling” is something we all strive for at times, if as kids for protection and learning from, thru all our lives to become better at what we do. by learning from those that know more and have the resources we lack.
That striving to learn from someone else, to get ahead by doing whatever to get and keep that one person’s interest, seems to be hard wired in most of us.
That works great for our species to bring up our young and keep advancing on the experiences and resources of others.

Who has not had great parents, or a neighbor that helped, a coach that made us be successful at what we wanted to do, a riding instructor like my first one, that taught me how to really see horses as a being in my life to care for, that we were responsible for and their protectors.
It made a big impression on me as a 12 year old when he stood up to the owner of the riding center, that wanted to take one sweet school horse out with his friends for a trail ride on her day off.
He would not let him and was deadly serious about it, she needed that rest. The horse got her day of rest, the boss relented quietly.
Our obligation to do right by our horses comes first, even when you are the boss.

When we run into trouble is when those in power over others, the employers, coaches, priests, teachers, parents, family members and well loved friends, mentors, employers, presidents, when ANYONE with power of any kind over another is an ABUSER, abuser of any kind, humans, other animals, any other in this world that some may abuse.
We need to remember that many trainers and coaches and etc. never abused anyone.
Even when they were in a situation where anyone, not just abusers, could take the advantage of the situation to abuse.

To stop abusers is what we have laws for.

Those that say, well, people could take advantage of others in some cultures and situations without being really abuse?
Sorry, repeating, that has never been so.
What has happened is that some abusers have abused the situation into pushing the boundaries of what is right.
Those with similar powers that are not abusers have always looked down at them and not gone there, not abused.

Abusing the trust of underlings of any kind is and has always been wrong.
That some do it has always been wrong.
We have always had laws trying to control abusers of all kinds.
Are there also some abusing those laws with false accusations?
That also is built into those laws, due process:

due proc·ess
/d(y)o͞o prəˈses/
noun [LIST=1]

[B]fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement.[/B] [/LIST] All of us have to be mindful how we may make statements or repeat what is questionable so we may not end up also abusing the process for or against anyone.

The current me-too and now SS for sports is exposing those abusers that thought they could get by with it.
Of course that change to now not only look the other way as so many were, but having a way to prosecute and stop abuse will affect many others than just the abusers.
Just think, all those that were abused were more than just the individuals abused, but so many others that process changed for worse.

It is about time, is all I have to say.

[OneGrayPony]

@Zirgs That’s a bizarre defense. Society doesn’t let you choose to associate your kids with convicted murderers either, because generally speaking, we don’t want your kids to get murdered which is the whole reason for the corrections concept - to protect society.

@specifiedcupcake the unrateds have always had this problem. Before official set downs because of SafeSport the local circuits have always been full of “interesting” folks. Honestly I don’t think this is much of a change, but I do wonder whether parents will choose the unrateds to show with “the big names who have been set down” vs the rateds in the future.

[ASB_Stars]

If you are wondering about statutes, wonder no more…

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/he-…4C2?li=BBnb7Kz

The case against GHM is no different. Even if it is from 50 years ago…

[OneGrayPony]

@Bluey

Expanding on this, once I had time to think past the obvious abuse.

Humans are all about looking for help, looking for those that can help us do any we do better, looking up to our parents, other family and friends and mentors.
Just anyone that can help us better ourselves and give us validation that we matter and/or can do what we are doing, here just being around to us glorious horses we adore, or even riding and showing horses.

Being considered someone’s “underling” is something we all strive for at times, if as kids for protection and learning from, thru all our lives to become better at what we do. by learning from those that know more and have the resources we lack.
That striving to learn from someone else, to get ahead by doing whatever to get and keep that one person’s interest, seems to be hard wired in most of us.
That works great for our species to bring up our young and keep advancing on the experiences and resources of others.

Who has not had great parents, or a neighbor that helped, a coach that made us be successful at what we wanted to do, a riding instructor like my first one, that taught me how to really see horses as a being in my life to care for, that we were responsible for and their protectors.
It made a big impression on me as a 12 year old when he stood up to the owner of the riding center, that wanted to take one sweet school horse out with his friends for a trail ride on her day off.
He would not let him and was deadly serious about it, she needed that rest. The horse got her day of rest, the boss relented quietly.
Our obligation to do right by our horses comes first, even when you are the boss.

When we run into trouble is when those in power over others, the employers, coaches, priests, teachers, parents, family members and well loved friends, mentors, employers, presidents, when ANYONE with power of any kind over another is an ABUSER, abuser of any kind, humans, other animals, any other in this world that some may abuse.
We need to remember that many trainers and coaches and etc. never abused anyone.

To stop abusers is what we have laws for.

Those that say, well, people could take advantage of others in some cultures and situations without being really abuse?
Sorry, that has never been so.
What has happened is that some abusers have abused the situation into pushing the boundaries of what is right.
Those with similar powers that are not abusers have always looked down at them and not gone there, not abused.

Abusing the trust of underlings of any kind is and has always been wrong.
That some do it has always been wrong.
We have always had laws trying to control abusers of all kinds.
Are there also some abusing those laws with false accusations?
That also is built into those laws, due process:

due proc·ess
/d(y)o͞o prəˈses/
noun [LIST=1]

[B]fair treatment through the normal judicial system, especially as a citizen's entitlement.[/B] [/LIST] All of us have to be mindful how we may make statements or repeat what is questionable so we may not end up also abusing the process for or against anyone.

The current me-too and now SS for sports is exposing those abusers that thought they could get by with it.
Of course that change to now not only look the other way as so many were, but having a way to prosecute and stop abuse will affect many others than just the abusers.
Just think, all those that were abused were more than just the individuals abused, but so many others that process changed for worse.

It is about time, is all I have to say.

I’m a bit confused by your post, @Bluey, but I do agree. France is now changing their laws on consent for just this reason https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-man-rape-11-year-old-consensual-relationship-cleared-law-change-marlene-schiappa-a8052766.html

Keep in mind, I am ALSO not saying that committing these crimes despite a cultural norm about them is ok. It’s not ok. It was never ok. But it was accepted, tacitly. It’s a very good thing that we are changing it because maybe other things have a shot at changing too.

For instance, young girls are pressured to grow up and be more responsible than young boys of the same age. I believe this is directly connected to our cultural beliefs that young girls are sexually mature “earlier” than boys. Again, not right, but definitely in our culture.

[Zirgs]

@OneGrayPony

@Zirgs That’s a bizarre defense. Society doesn’t let you choose to associate your kids with convicted murderers either, because generally speaking, we don’t want your kids to get murdered which is the whole reason for the corrections concept - to protect society.

@specifiedcupcake the unrateds have always had this problem. Before official set downs because of SafeSport the local circuits have always been full of “interesting” folks. Honestly I don’t think this is much of a change, but I do wonder whether parents will choose the unrateds to show with “the big names who have been set down” vs the rateds in the future.

@OneGrayPony Not true. In the judicial sustem, once someone has served their time, they live amongst us. The SafeSport program both extends the boundaries of the legal system by extending punishment duration, and more concerning, they ban people that the legal system found innocent or exonerated, because SafeSport has the power to ban based on their interpretation of risk, which goes beyond our legal system. That is what the Safe Sport law allows, and why there is legitimate concern for all of us that it violates our Constitution. Unlike Federal, State and local laws for which we can vote in representatives, SafeSport creates their codes without our representation.

So @OneGrayPony if someone reports you, and you are found exhonerated in the legal system, SafeSport can still ban you.

[specifiedcupcake]

@OneGrayPony what about the people who would rather not show with child molesters, but cannot afford the rated circuit? Not everyone has a clear choice. Everyone squawks they’re leaving USEF for this or that, but most don’t because that’s still the path to national/international greatness. It will be interesting to see if people opt to do that though! I would suspect King George might find that local circuit level a bit beneath him, though.