German vet discusses flawed breeding and issues with movement

[fordtraktor]

Agree. My last purchase was an unbroke 6 yo and I honestly don’t mind that about him one bit. He’s now 8 and will be showing Second/Third this year, just starting the flying changes. That’s fine—he’ll be FEI by 10 which gives me plenty of time at the upper levels, if his training keeps proceeding as it has.

It’s maybe coincidence, but he is also the soundest horse I’ve had in a very long time. The only time he’s been “off” is when he caught a respiratory infection at a show. Knock on wood! I hope this isn’t jinxing it!

[CanteringCarrot]

Only have a quick second here, but there was supposed to be more to that post. Whoops. It got cut off I guess.

I did reply to Libby, but that was in another post.

[Libby2563]

Thank you all for your well wishes for Petey! The procedure should just be wrapping up and I’m anxiously awaiting an update.

For those who haven’t seen it yet this is a really excellent informational video from New Bolton on the state of knowledge about EDM in late 2022: https://vimeo.com/749279172

[Lunabear1988]

Sending all the positive thoughts for Petey. Please keep us updated.

[smoofox]

@JB

@smoofox

But N/H horses still are - and are carriers.

HYPP isn’t a disease that has carrier status. Hetero horses - n/H - are diseased. It’s just not as bad, usually, as the HH horses. PSSM is also diseased in the hetero state, it’s just a matter of degree, with homozygous horses being worse than hetero.

Yes - you are right. I was typing faster than I was thinking - and the dwarfism issues seeped into my HYPP comments. Thank you for correcting me!

Jingles for Petey!!

[Libby2563]

Okay, I didn’t want to hijack this thread any more but I do have an update on sweety Petey that I posted on “his” thread if anyone is interested: Thanksgiving lameness, now neuro (update post 142)

[Caol_Ila]

When I was looking for a youngster two years ago, I looked at two Highland ponies, half siblings. A 2.5 year old gelding and a 3.5 year old mare. Both horses had long, hyper-mobile pasterns and long cannon bones behind. Highlands! Especially the gelding. At one point, while I was watching him mosey around his field, one of his hind pasterns flexed forward in a way I have never seen before.

They were at a little stud farm, and I noted plenty of horses around with standard looking Highland pony legs. Short, stocky pasterns. Low set hocks and short cannons. The stallion himself looked normal. The two being offered to me just seemed NQR. I can’t help but wonder if their stallion was occasionally throwing funky horses, and they were trying to offload them on someone (me!) who had zero interest in the breed show circuit, which was their big thing.

[beowulf]

@Libby2563

For those who haven’t seen it yet this is a really excellent informational video from New Bolton on the state of knowledge about EDM in late 2022: https://vimeo.com/749279172

Thank you for the link. I’m watching now, some notes for those who can’t watch or don’t have the the time to:

May not be a new disease, may just be that we are better at diagnosing it
There is no cure or therapy that helps
Has physical (ataxia) and behavioral components
EDM is the most commonly diagnosed neuro disease post-mortem at NBC
WBs are over-represented but seen in all breeds
European WBs (imports) over-represented
Seen in all ages but most common is 5-15
May have genetic component
Has Vit-E component
Vit E metabolism increased in animals diagnosed post-mortem
Increased cholesterol oxidation markers in spinal cords of horses diagnosed post-mortem
Possible environmental consequences play a role in pathological expression of disease
Risk factors: lack green grass exposure, insecticide exposure as foals, time on dirt lots, dam with another affected foal

EDM Symptoms:
symmetric ataxia
all four limbs usually affected, hind limbs more so than front limbs
may have poor topline or coat quality
occasional aberrant menace response (overexuberant response)
abnormal mentation (dull or anxious demeanor to complete opposite of spectrum: unpredictable/anxious)
spookiness frequently described in owner reports where owners say horse was previously brave
“flipped a switch on me” was a classic descriptor of these horses
abnormal behavior with herd mates / change of behavior in horses with herd mates
dull or vacant stare in work or at rest

Typical diagnostic procedure includes:
neuro eval (mentation / cranial nerve eval / gait eval)

• walks/trots straight and back
• ask to walk in serpentine fashion, head elevated, tight circles, tail pull
  Tail pull gives info on hind end weakness and proprioception
  walk horses up/down hill including in high head position
  grade of ataxia will be given after these are performed, most on milder side (grade 1 or 2)
  many cases will neurolocalize to cervical (diffuse) which means may lie in brainstem or thoracic

Top differentials are:
CVSM, infectious disease (EPM/Lyme), EDM/eNAD

Diagnostic procedures include:
cervical imaging (standing lateral radiograph)
myelography may be suggested (some shortcoming with viewing, only shows dorsal/ventral ?)
computed tomography may be suggested to rule out lateral compression ^
CSF centesis is performed to rule out infectious diseases (cytology of fluids)
over a quarter of diagnosed cases have come back with elevated protein in face of normal cell count on cytology ^
do all baseline neuro/infectious disease rule outs first before EDM is on the table as a diagnostic, rule out pSSM or other myopathies

Recommendations for treatment after presumptive diagnosis vary on horse presentation:
optimize performance
physical therapy (keeping in work) may help with proprioceptive deficits
supportive supplements (vit E, CoQ10 reducing oxidative stress)
neurologic re-evaluation at later dates after mgmt changes (2/3 months)
they seem to do better in work than out of work provided mild ataxia versus unsafe neuro

still a lot of holes left in knowledge/diagnosis cases

typical case progressions are variable, occasionally see horses plateau in clinical sign (more common in young horses)
older set (5-15 yrs) worsened ataxia / behavior over a few months following initial evaluation
unfortunately many cases devolve/get worse

confirmatory diagnosis is only reached at necropsy

diagnosis requires experienced pathologist
caudal medula/cervical/thoracic reviewed
eNAD is usually limited to brain stem
EDM is widespread and more likely in spinal chord
both are indistinguishable until histopathological diagnosis is made on necropsy

Prevention (speculative)

• pregnant mares and foals should be kept on lush pasture
• if no grass available, supplemention strategy of a-tocophorol/vit e for preg mares thrugh third trimester to weaning, and foals thru 3 years of age (recommended elevate WS, nano-e, Emcelle for vit e supplements)
• repeat neuro evals should be done on young stock / mares

NBC ongoing projects:
tailhead muscle biopsy as a potential proxy for CNS oxidative damage (on living candidates, hence “biopsy”)
serum and CSF biomakers
tail-head muscle (SCDM) may hold a key in diagnosis, because of type 1 muscle fibers
researchers identify a subset of vit E deficient horses had clinical signs of EMND not as extreme, with histopathologic changes (chronic vit-e deficient horses), horses did not improve with vit-E supplementation
biopsies may be a proxy for oxidative damage that occurred to central nervous system and EDM horses may b more likely to exhibit these damages observed above ^
results: 52% of definitively diagnosed with EDM showed histopathologic changes in tail-head muscle biopsy (vitEM+)/ markers of oxidative stress

Part of the video goes into oxidative damage biomarkers, which went a bit over my head. There are measurable biomarkers in humans, so hypothetically should be measurable in horses, so they are working on multivarate analysis and potentially investigate urine since it is useful in human cases. Cytokine profiles in neurological horses may be elevated in neuro horses, they are researching this.

[millerra]

Just a question here…

So, the video mentioned imported warmbloods at the beginning. Then there is the recommendation about mares and foals having access to lush green pastures for vitamin E. How are mares, foals, and young stock typically maintained in the large farms in Europe. I’ve never been there but have seen pictures/videos of loose barns… rather than pasture. I assume it’s highly variable but…

[JB]

@beowulf

WBs are over-represented but seen in all breeds
European WBs (imports) over-represented
Seen in all ages but most common is 5-15
May have genetic component
Has Vit-E component

Caveat: I didn’t watch the video

Would this have much more to do with how many farms raise babies in Europe, - more hay less grass? Is Europe a place in general were grass is lower in Vit E than most places in North America?

Meaning - is it locale and management, rather than genetic?

@beowulf

if no grass available, supplemention strategy of a-tocophorol/vit e for preg mares thrugh third trimester to weaning, and foals thru 3 years of age (recommended elevate WS, nano-e, Emcelle for vit e supplements)

I wonder why the only suggest the water-soluble/nano-dispersed forms of Vit E, when most horses really just need regular natural E?

[Lunabear1988]

They did mention that they wondered if there was a possibility that some of these horses actually metabolized vitamin E at quicker rates. So maybe that’s why?

Although someone much smarter than me might be able to answer more correctly…

[JB]

Thanks, from that perspective i can see a genetic component. It’s allllllways a good idea to test blood levels for E and Se to make sure you’re not headed into dangerous territory.

And yes, I know there are some US-raised horses who simply need the w-s/n-d Vit E to maintain blood levels, at relatively low amounts, like 2000-3000IU, where it was either taking 2-3x that much in regular E, or regular E just didn’t cut it at all. So definitely there are horses who just either metabolize faster, or don’t absorb well.

[DownYonder]

Re breeding farms in Germany - I visited a fair number on regular trips back in the 2000 - 2004 timeframe. Most of my trips were in the late fall/early winter and most horses (including broodmares) were living inside most of the time, with limited turnout. A few places still had mares outside in large fields. (I remember standing in a sleet storm near Bremerhaven one very cold November day, admiring some jumper mare eye candy that was living in a very large field fenced on three sides by canals. I asked if they ever jumped the canals and was assured that despite them being jumpers, they weren’t very inclined to leave their nice field so it wasn’t really a concern of the farmers.)

I did make a couple of trips in the summer, and at many places, mares and foals and yearlings, etc. were outside in fields - and often, it was 24x7. They came in only for foaling out or for vet work or farrier.

A lot of places seemed to be feeding silage to the inside horses during the winter but I do not know if that is still the practice. It is my understanding that silage is more suitable for cattle and not horses, but many of the breeders we visited on those trips were basically farmers who raised a few horses in addition to their main livelihood of raising cattle or swine. I don’t know anything about the Vit E content of silage but it seems to me there have been much higher incidences of neuro issues being reported in horses over the past 10-15 years or so. And I am not sure if it is just that we have better communication channels now or if the incidences truly are higher. I am inclined to think there are a combination of factors at play - genetic predisposition, nutrition, and horsekeeping/training methods, etc.

[CanteringCarrot]

Re Germany, I’ve lived in Germany for over 8 years and keeping horses inside is common practice in my experience. I’ve lived in 2 different regions now, and I’ve seen so many boarding and breeding facilities keep horses in from about Nov until May. Some have small paddock turnout for a few hours a day, some do not. Some may have exercise/hot walkers that they use too. There are some places, such as where my youngster came from, that do keep them out 24/7 365. Mine lived with his mum and other foals in a large field with a giant shelter that had hay and straw (I mean, you could fit like 20 horses in this half barn structure). When he was weaned he moved into a herd with other colts elsewhere with the same large shelter set up. Most of the ridden horses were kept stabled 12 hours and our for 12 hours though. Some seem to always be in their stalls when I’m there, but not every horse there is owned by the breeder.

The place where I boarded my ridden horse often kept mares and foals in, but maybe gave them an hour or two out in the morning. Once they were weaned they would go on the field from May to Nov and then into a small barn with a small attached paddock for winter. This is a pretty common set up. I would not buy a foal that had been mostly kept in a stall. Not what I support and I don’t think it’s good for their development at all.

Haylage is still commonly fed and very popular. There’s nothing wrong with it for horses and I quite liked it for my horse that had allergies because it’s not dusty like hay can be, and it often had lower sugar than the hay (tested). Of course haylage must be stored wrapped and sealed. If you open a bale, you should use it within a certain amount of time/a few days or so, but I’ve seen it be for a week or so. I’d choose a good haylage over hay in some instances for sure. Nothing wrong with it.

I think the USA has way more botulism in the soil, so it’s just not good for horses.

[Libby2563]

@JB

I wonder why the only suggest the water-soluble/nano-dispersed forms of Vit E, when most horses really just need regular natural E?

I can kind of answer this, since I just spoke to Dr Colmer (from the video) on the phone about it a few hours ago. I mentioned that I’m feeding UltraCruz natural E pellets and she said she’s had a lot of clients feeding that lately and didn’t discourage it at all. She said they recommend the three listed brands because they have seen or done testing with those, and not with others.

My guy’s bloodwork from this week should be interesting because he was on 4,000 IU/day in December when he tested at 4 ppm (normal) and has been on 8,000 IU/day since. I’m very curious to see if doubling the dose has affected his levels.

[JB]

@DownYonder

It is my understanding that silage is more suitable for cattle and not horses,

It all depends on how well the process is done, but in general, Europe is much more adept at doing it properly, since they do it on a regular basis. It’s not done much in the US and therefore tends to be very sketchy for horses (and not even the healthiest for cattle, but they can manage the bacteria issues better than horses).

@DownYonder

I don’t know anything about the Vit E content of silage but it seems to me there have been much higher incidences of neuro issues being reported in horses over the past 10-15 years or so

As soon as grass is cut, the Vit E starts degrading. I don’t know if it’s as fast or as much as normal hay, as the wrapping process may help preserve some of it, but I doubt it’s still enough to maintain healthy levels if fed long enough.

I’d be really interested to see if anyone has done any testing of grasses (not cut, still on the root) in enough places to see what the Vit E content is. It’s not a problem in most of the US, but there are some pockets where it’s low enough that supplementation is needed even if they’re on full time grass.

@Libby2563

I can kind of answer this, since I just spoke to Dr Colmer (from the video) on the phone about it a few hours ago. I mentioned that I’m feeding UltraCruz natural E pellets and she said she’s had a lot of clients feeding that lately and didn’t discourage it at all. She said they recommend the three listed brands because they have seen or done testing with those, and not with others.

That’s unfortunate that they haven’t done testing with regular natural E, as it would save clients a lot of money if they can use one of those. Emcelle is the cheapest of those 3, so that’s what I’d always use if I needed a w-s form.

@Libby2563

My guy’s bloodwork from this week should be interesting because he was on 4,000 IU/day in December when he tested at 4 ppm (normal) and has been on 8,000 IU/day since. I’m very curious to see if doubling the dose has affected his levels.

What made you go to 8000/day if he was normal on 4000? Just trying to get into the high normal range?

[Libby2563]

@JB

What made you go to 8000/day if he was normal on 4000? Just trying to get into the high normal range?

Yes, 4 ppm is the low end of normal and given his possible neuro issues I figured more is better, within reason. Plus in early Dec he could have still been getting some from grass—less so in Jan/Feb. When his new results are available I’ll ask the vets for further guidance.

[starsandsun]

I’m giving 8000 units per day, and my horse is at about 5.53 ppm. He’s been getting 8000 for about 2 years now, and when I started giving Vitamin E he was in EDM range.

[Bluey]

@JB

It all depends on how well the process is done, but in general, Europe is much more adept at doing it properly, since they do it on a regular basis. It’s not done much in the US and therefore tends to be very sketchy for horses (and not even the healthiest for cattle, but they can manage the bacteria issues better than horses).

That was a strange comment on cattle nutrition?
There are over 100 cattle feedlots around here, each one feeding tens of thousands of cattle, filling their bunkers every fall with millions of silage to be fed thru the year as the base for their rations.
The silage is tested many times as is put up and as fed, the protocols followed for cattle nutrition have now decades of and ongoing studies showing how best for each kind of silage product on hand, nutritionists and attending vets advising all along with the newest and best.

Silage is not at all “not even the healthiest for cattle”?
Most rations here for beef cattle and for what I hear dairy cows, all use silage for a good 10%+ of their rations, as forage.

I don’t know that feedlot silage is ever fed to feedlot horses.
They get straight hay and commercial horse rations, as per their attending vet’s approval.
The silage used for horses may be a different product than for cattle.

[JB]

@Bluey

That was a strange comment on cattle nutrition?

It wasn’t really, I guess I just didn’t make my thought process clear.

I’m not talking about the nutritional content of silage/haylage, I’m talking about the differences in what cattle can eat vs horses from a health perspective.

Haylage for horses is really not done much in the US. My “not the healthiest” comment was about the stuff that’s questionable for horses, and therefore, is by default also not the healthiest for cattle. That’s not the same as saying “haylage isn’t healthy for cattle”

Some people absolutely to try to feed haylage/silage to their horses, and get it from people who SAY it’s for horses, but it’s really questionable quality to start with, from a safety perspective, no matter who you’re feeding it to.

US - doesn’t do haylage much for horses, and those who do are often - IME - not doing it well enough
Europe - a lot more horse-quality haylage is produced.