German vet discusses flawed breeding and issues with movement

[JB]

@Silverbridge

When the same horse was standing still, the pasterns looked very upright

Were they long, or normal in length? It’s less of a concern if they’re longer and have more drop, as that’s to be expected (not that I would choose that horse for upper level work of any kind), but if they were normal, and dropping like that, red flag for sure.

@jvanrens

There’s something wrong with the whole kuering process it seems.

To some degree I think it really depends on what can be seen at that age. Until they start putting on significant weight relative to their height, pasterns are doing to stay more upright, with less flexion in the trot and canter. BUT, if you’re seeing a weanling with appropriately upright pasterns, but adult-appropriate flexion, then that’s a red flag for me.

[beowulf]

What makes some of these conditions and diseases so insidious is that many won’t exhibit physical symptoms until the horse is mature. When the horse is a weanling or yearling, they rarely show signs of ESPA or neurological conditions. That is not the fault of Keurigs or other registries for not detecting it sooner.

Unless registries start to require state of the art neck x-rays combined with rib/chest x-rays and ultrasounds of surrounding connective tissue, it’s going to be fairly difficult to rule out ECVM. At this time spinal x-rays is not considered a definitive diagnosis for this disease, and it is much more involved than just grabbing rads of the horse.

ESPA/DSLD is much harder, because there is not much agreement on definitive diagnosis besides necropsy. Obviously that is not ideal for still-living candidates. There is the nuchal ligament biopsy, but it is invasive, painful, and not without complications – before addressing its inconsistency in findings.

What could be feasible is simple data collection of parents and progeny and transparency. There needs to be better transparency from large stallion stations that tend to quietly retire or move on studs that either do not perform to expectations, or cannot.

The elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Furstenball is a classic example of this. It’s been said everywhere that discusses dressage breeding in any capacity that this stallion has been battling soundness issues, some even saying ESPA/DSLD. He is kept under wraps and as of 2022 had over 80 licensed sons.

[Horsecrazy3]

@beowulf

What could be feasible is simple data collection of parents and progeny and transparency. There needs to be better transparency from large stallion stations that tend to quietly retire or move on studs that either do not perform to expectations, or cannot.

The elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Furstenball is a classic example of this. It’s been said everywhere that discusses dressage breeding in any capacity that this stallion has been battling soundness issues, some even saying ESPA/DSLD. He is kept under wraps and as of 2022 had over 80 licensed sons.

I agree 100%.

[Silverbridge]

They appeared normal in length to me & neither vet commented on that aspect of it so I will say, normal, yes.

That was to JB. I can’t figure out how the rest of you do the reply-to-a-specific-poster thing.

[jvanrens]

Click on bottom right coner of the post.

If you want to include a quote click on and what you are replying to will be included.

[Warmblood1]

Well said, @beowulf.

And many breeders and buyers do avoid Furstenball, as well as his sons, myself included.

[eightpondfarm]

@Horsecrazy3

This buyer is voting no that extreme flexion and fetlock drop at the walk/trot is okay, now that I know it has deadly consequences.

A few years ago, i gave a hardpass on a young female mule with very long and quite angled pasterns. There was a wrongness about it and even though she was lovely in all respects (IF you like mules) my instinctive reaction proved correct. She was dressage trained by her buyer and was a broken down by 8 yrs old. She was walking on her ankles…basically. So so sad. At which time she was offered to me to give a ‘good home’ to. (I said no)

I was watching my mustangs walk yesterday, and every single one of them put their front toe down first and i could see an obvious…sort of ‘ratchet’, as they dropped their heel down. I think this is the most natural footfall. FYI mustangs almost always have short pasterns.

[beowulf]

As a conversational starter: at this point I don’t know how anyone can avoid him, he and his sons are in everything and his sire line is very well established.

Since we have no idea where what it is that sidelined him, or where what he suffered came from (IS it even genetic?) avoiding him and sons doesn’t answer the question: where did it come from? Is it a fluke, from him alone? Are his offspring affected? Is it from his sire? His dam? A combination of both? Is it because he’s linebred to Donnerhall? Is it something else?

It’d be so much more helpful for breeders to know what is going on, so they can make informed decisions.

He was and is a really nice horse. He has some really incredible offspring. He is by and out of a super family. And his bloodlines are in almost everything modern and bred for dressage. How are you going to avoid lines like Donnerhall, Weltmeyer, Florestan, and Calypso II in a dressage horse today? And should you even have to?

All of these questions would be answered if we knew what was going on. At this point though, it does sound like there is something hereditary at play with so many people owning direct offspring with careers cut short - some of who have been formally diagnosed with ESPA.

[JB]

@eightpondfarm

I was watching my mustangs walk yesterday, and every single one of them put their front toe down first and i could see an obvious…sort of ‘ratchet’, as they dropped their heel down. I think this is the most natural footfall.

Toe-first is never correct.

A toe-first landing means heels hurt. The “ratchet” as they bear weight into the fetlock is a good way to start developing navicular problems. Feet need to land at least flat, and a slight heel-first landing is even better.

[eightpondfarm]

why do you think 4 of 4 mustangs do it?

Edit: I think i’ve got the answer. I’ll just bet mustangs learn to move toe first across the high desert because of all the rocky ground. No wonder it’s a mustang thing… I’ll have to scrutinize my mustangs that have been here on my grassy pastures today and see if they’ve adapted to soft (relatively) ground!

i actually thought it had something to do with pastern length until you told me how “bad” it was. I’m gonna bet all the mustangs move this way over their rough terrain. So, it’s just about as natural as can be when you think about it.

[JB]

I’m betting the 4 horses all have the same farrier/trimmer.

Toe-first has never been good, and never will be. The “clunk” into place of the pastern joints is damaging, as they are not meant to bare weight on the flexed position (same as the knees), and every time they “clunk” into place, they are stressed.

This isn’t a learned thing, it’s a discomfort thing.

It’s one thing to bear weight on the toes first when going uphill. That’s sheer mechanics. But on flat or a slight uphill incline, or down, it is not healthy and not normal.

[eightpondfarm]

maybe. but maybe not. all four of these fresh from the high desert horses move this very same way. Three of them are from the same herd area, one from a different state. Like i said, i’ll take a good look at my mustangs that have been here a year or so, and living on grassy pastures. I’ve also put a question in to a couple of mustang groups and asked others to take a look at their ‘freshies’. Googling around just now has provided some interesting tidbits:

“When your horse lands toe-first, he’s landing on the thinnest part of the sole where the concussive forces are unable to be dissipated and thus are absorbed by the horse’s lower limbs, which are not designed for this. Additionally, the thinnest part of the sole has the least amount of protection for the most sensitive parts of the hoof such as the pedal bone/coffin bone.”
also:
“A toe-first landing is when your horse first touches the ground with the front part of his hoof after a stride and thereby lands with all his weight on his toe. This landing is perfectly normal in some circumstances, like when he maneuvers through rocky terrain, climbs uphill or moves across slippery, muddy ground. However, this movement becomes unhealthy if your horse uses toe-first landings consistently.” (https://www.horsesandus.com/how-do-wild-horses-maintain-their-hooves/)

“The horses studied traveled on hard rocky ground and had been isolated with minimal intervention for about 100 years. The primary epidermal laminar density (PELD) in sections around the perimeter of the hoof wall of the feral fetuses show significant differences, with the density decreasing from the toe to the heel of the hoof. This is the same density variation observed in the hooves of adult horses. In contrast, PELD sections in the fetuses of domestic Thoroughbreds were uniform in density. The authors suggest that the distribution of the laminar density in the hooves of feral fetuses is a genetic preadaptation, which enables young foals to travel long distances in extreme environments soon after birth.”

[smoofox]

Just catching up…

@Warmblood1

@sascha

That hits the nail on the head right there. Breeders would have been a LOT more compliant if they couldn’t register the offspring of HYPP carriers.

H/H carriers of HYPP have not been eligible for registry in AQHA since 2007.

But N/H horses still are - and are carriers. No one cares as long as the big beefy N/H halter stallion has blue ribbons. Or if the WP champion is N/H - as long as he can do a staggering 4 beat trope.

If more people/breeders had actually seen a horse suffer through a severe HYPP attack, maybe they would not be so cavalier about it. I would not wish that on any horse.

@sascha

And yes, I know how AQHA papers are marked and that marked papers don’t stop stupid breeders from doing what the he’ll they want and breeding Willy nilly because they believe so strongly in their own luck (and to hell with everyone else’s). And let’s add that if you don’t like the look of those papers, you shred them and sell the horse as grade. Then some idiot not knowing what they’ve got, not even knowing there might be a problem let alone a test for it, breeds that horse. The problem does not stop at marked papers.

VERY well said.

Some of the freeze frames of the dressage trotting videos - and the rather bizarre analysis and assertions - is both alarming and a head-scratcher - all at once.

My BO bred and showed minis for many years - and dwarfism was a concern. There was no test for the dwarfism types at the time - so the only way to know if your horse was a carrier was when a dwarf foal was laying in the straw. One big breeder claimed they had never had a dwarf - which was an obvious lie as it ran in certain lines and they used only those lines. It was discovered later that when a dwarf foal was born there it would be dragged out back and killed to keep the genetics “hidden”. Disgusting.

The BO’s multiple grand champion stallion was of one of the lines that was suspect at that time… and when a sweet little pinto dwarf filly arrived about the second spring I was here, it set off alarm bells. The stallion and that mare were obviously carriers. There were already mares checked in foal that year - but the stallion was immediately retired. He is still here - 29 years old, happy and full of sass. On the outside he looks perfect - but he had the ability to pass on that dwarfism gene. He did do one more breeding a couple of years ago - to a mare owned by a very good friend of the BP who had been tested and was not a carrier. The mare, not the friend. I was not keen on that but it was not my call…the resulting red filly was amazing - and tested neg. Thank goodness.

[Warmblood1]

@beowulf

As a conversational starter: at this point I don’t know how anyone can avoid him, he and his sons are in everything and his sire line is very well established.

It’s easy to avoid Furstenball. He has plenty of licensed sons but it isn’t like trying to avoid SH or DH who are just about in every pedigree. Even his sire, Furst Heinrich is pretty easy to avoid. His damline is Donnerhall but neither of these two are specifically known for weak pasterns - Furstenball is. A lot of breeders have used his sons with success but it is still too early to see if he is producing actual DSLD (etc). DH is not known for producing weak pasterns so I would not attribute these qualities to him. Breeders as a whole do not and there is a plethora of seasoned DH offspring to prove he is not known for producing weak pasterns.

Also worth considering that the genetic contribution in further generations is quite small.

[beowulf]

In my circle it seems like every other horse is F-line. Florestan I is staunchly represented here, and don’t forget Fidertanz is in the top ten of WBFSH rankings. Furstenball is #12. That’s up from #56 in 2021. He has enjoyed immense popularity with breeders and that has impacted the pool of available young horses. I think he has something close to 200 premium daughters and 90 approved sons.

When breeders are breeding to the Stallion Du Jour, and many of them are Furstenball or a Furstenball son, there’s a lot of them hitting the ground or on the market. Right now in my area there’s a trend towards breeding what sells as a young horse, which I can’t blame them for. Breeding is not cheap, and you want to breed what sells. I speak from experience being on the heels of helping a friend with a serious budget find a dressage bred horse on the east coast. There were lots of Furstenballs. He wasn’t on the exclusion list, but concerns came up for given reasons.

I’m sure you know this but soft or weak pasterns in a dressage horse are not indicative of ESPA/DSLD. In Hanoverians there has been a trend in the last ten years for softer, more elastic horses and that includes in the topline and pastern. I wouldn’t assume soft pasterns immediately means ESPA/DSLD. It can be a symptom, but there are horses with soft pasterns who never develope ESPA.

That is even assuming that’s what sidelined Furstenball. We don’t understand the inheritance of ESPA/DSLD at all. We can look at his pedigree and guess it came from him, but his sire died at 7, his dam has another licensed son who is making his own waves in dressage, his pedigree is packed with stallions everyone knows. There are breeders on this forum that have mentioned Donnerhall as a suspected source too. It’s not so cut and dry at this time as “avoid this stallion/mare” because there’s no understanding of where it comes from. And if you want to avoid him, you’ll want to avoid his pedigree – and good luck avoiding Donnerhall or Weltmeyer in a horse today.

My guess is it has a multifactoral genetic component, and I don’t think it’s as simple as one copy from either parent.

[fordtraktor]

Great post. I agree it is easy to avoid Furstenball, but not easy to avoid Donnerhall, nor do I think it is warranted given just how many perfectly fine DH descendants don’t have soft pasterns. Bugatti is another I know has produced several ESPA horses, enough to knock him off my list. He has a licensed son local to me that is just LOVELY (Bingotti). But he’s off my list for that reason. Such a gorgeous elastic movement…but when does elastic turn to ESPA? I don’t know.

I am breeding to a stallion without a performance career, however (Gaudi). If he hadn’t had that accident as a yearling, his incredible pedigree simply wouldn’t be available to the US market so I think it is worth the risk. As breeders, we are constantly rolling the dice…you have to just pick what you think is going to work well with your specific mare and be marketable. I have met him in person as well, and his movement is both lovely, elastic, but not so much that he is soft in the pasterns. He is also very sound as a mover, which helped my decision. He’s also very fertile, which helps too!

[DownYonder]

@beowulf

good luck avoiding Donnerhall or Weltmeyer in a horse today.

It is much, much harder avoiding Donnerhall blood than Weltmeyer as the latter didn’t have a plethora of sons and grandsons that bred on like Donnerhall did, nor did/do those sons/grandsons show up decade after decade in the top GP ranks like the Donnerhall descendants.

It seems the only way to completely avoid Donnerhall blood these days is to go with Trakehners or classic Dutch lines.

[Scribbler]

@Warmblood1

@beowulf

As a conversational starter: at this point I don’t know how anyone can avoid him, he and his sons are in everything and his sire line is very well established.

It’s easy to avoid Furstenball. He has plenty of licensed sons but it isn’t like trying to avoid SH or DH who are just about in every pedigree. Even his sire, Furst Heinrich is pretty easy to avoid. His damline is Donnerhall but neither of these two are specifically known for weak pasterns - Furstenball is. A lot of breeders have used his sons with success but it is still too early to see if he is producing actual DSLD (etc). DH is not known for producing weak pasterns so I would not attribute these qualities to him. Breeders as a whole do not and there is a plethora of seasoned DH offspring to prove he is not known for producing weak pasterns.

Also worth considering that the genetic contribution in further generations is quite small.

The thing though is if it’s a particular gene (as yet unknown) it has a 50/50 chance of transmission in the first generation or the 10th and more than 50/50 if both parents are carriers. So it’s not like phenotypic characteristics that do dilute.

[Warmblood1]

I do agree that the F line is big right now. However, out of the top ten for the WBFSH rankings, there is only one F line stallion and that is Fidertanz II, sired by Florestan. Florestan produced Furst Heinrich who sired Furstenball, but that is the closest we get to FB with arguably the world’s leading top sires. Vivaldi does have Flemmingh in the 3rd generation but that is it.

I can’t speak for hunter/jumper breeders but I can say that Furstenball maintains a great deal of stigma amongst dressage breeders and many will not touch him because of it. Due to Furst Heinrich’s short life, he was not a hugely influential sire. While none of us can say with certainty whether or not he potentially has DSLD or other issues, we simply don’t have enough aged offspring to say whether or not his offspring are also affected negatively with a genetic component. Therefore, the best solution IMO is to avoid him until better data arrives.

IMO the hardest sires to avoid are DH, SH and as of late, Totilas, which is why breeders are now choosing F line stallions - for genetic diversity. They are highly proven as well.

The good news is that DH and the like are now appearing mostly in 4th and 5th generations where genetic contribution is between 3 and 6 percent. I personally do not believe DH is a contributor to issues with pasterns, however.

[beowulf]

Yup. I am still not in the camp to avoid any of these lines at all, until we understand ESPA/DSLD better. I just wish that things were more transparent.

On the topic of Trakehners… I love them. Have you seen Kros yet?