True, assuming that it is something like a genetic disease and not perhaps as aspect of weak conformation (such as simply soft pasterns).
2 Likes
I canāt wait to see foal spam. Promise you will give us foal spam. One of the horses I took care of when she was a foal (she is now in her teens, whew) was bred to Gaudi. I havenāt seen the filly in person, but she looks exceptional from the photos shared on FB.
1 Like
Absolutely there will be foal spam on the 2023 foal thread!
3 Likes
HYPP isnāt a disease that has carrier status. Hetero horses - n/H - are diseased. Itās just not as bad, usually, as the HH horses. PSSM is also diseased in the hetero state, itās just a matter of degree, with homozygous horses being worse than hetero.
Youāre right about the cavalierness about the n/H horses. The number of people who still think that they donāt have attacks, or ājust make sure you feed them right, youāll be fineā is insane, willful ignorance at its finest.
3 Likes
I can accept that some of the breeding for movement and uphill conformation may have a negative consequence. But how much of this is also the drive to develop the horse for sale and show at earlier ages? I have seen that it is very common to start young warmbloods at 2-1/2 and I have also seen a lot of tying and trussing to develop the muscles for showing in the ārightā way. You do see these horses at the show in the perfect outline, not quite on contact, and not oscillating their necks as in normal movement. The judges still score them very well because these horses have been trained to express movement in this frame. Warmbloods arenāt physically mature until the age of 7 or 8, yet you see them showing FEI at age 7. So my point is that a horse who has a propensity for breaking down because of the breeding might not actually break down if managed. And the likelihood of that horse breaking down might be exaccerbated by the current competitive time frames that many individuals are imposing.
8 Likes
Question for the knowledgeable here: are there any similar concerns in jumper bred wbs? Any lines people know to watch out for?
1 Like
I think itās a mix of both, with one factor weighing more heavily in certain circumstances than others. I definitely see a lot of sales videos of 3 and 4yo horses where Iām like, why in the world are they being told to go in that frame, do those movements, at that age? Sure, some of these more leggy movers might be more balanced or uphill in their carriage where they can do that versus another youngster who is lucky to go in a basic intro/training frame and maintain the gait and somewhat steer. But just because one CAN be fancier, why must it at that age? I do think that can contribute to the problem.
That said, I saw a 4yo for sale in person that did not appear to have been pushed beyond normal training (it was to be a jumper), and it already had one obviously dropped hind fetlock. And no surprise that it had some major behavioral problems too. And know of others that have not gotten anywhere in their training really due to problems at a young age with people who did take their time.
1 Like
Iāve not noticed a trend. Although Iāve seen some with problems (post above) as well as some others with very questionably soft pasterns all around. But not enough to make a stallion correlation as Iāve seen with the dressage lines (e.g., Weltmeyer in particular for those Iāve known in person).
Trends I have noticed include things like may not throw a good shoulder, some tend to always produce a very attractive horse overall, some produce very good front ends, some very powerful hind ends. Some tend to produce a type that could go multiple directions (and these I often like because they can throw a good hunter because theyāve got the scope and jump ability with some of the pretty and free movement for dressage). More of what I have noticed and talked to sales barns and jumper breeders about is temperament.
1 Like
And then you have the breeders not using the older stallions and choosing the flavor of the month. So you have horses like Damsey that were on the top of the world rankings at 18 and 19 and not being utilized much in Germany despite the dam producing another international horse, and his full brother Diesel coming up the ranks with an amateur owner here in the US. I think when they can compete at that age at FEI levels they have passed the soundness test and that is an important consideration.
I wish we knew more about DSLD. There has been some important research done in Paso Finos and I think they have been able to recognize a gene sequence associated with it but it doesnāt seem to be relevant in non Paso Finos. I agree there are long pasterns, soft pasterns and DSLD and there doesnāt seem to be a direct correlation between the three. Furstenball has soft pasterns for sure but it is hard to tell if he has DSLD. He is certainly an elastic horse but how much of that is related to his pasterns?
4 Likes
Very simple answer: because they sell for high prices!
4 Likes
This thread is again hitting extra close to home today, as my wonderful 5-year-old is at the clinic awaiting a myelogram. The neurologist says heās right on that line between super fancy mover and neurological, with just enough to push him over the line to mildly neuro. He fits the profile perfectly: imported WB gelding with wow movementāIIRC the German vet even mentioned narrower horses as being more susceptible.
Ironically I tried to screen for this before I bought him by asking about his upbringing to get at Vitamin E consumption, requesting specific neuro tests even though the old-school German PPE vet practically rolled his eyes, and getting neck/back X-rays. I also thought it was a positive that his sire (Londontime) had been around for a while, though apparently he died this past fall at age 20 because a āchronic condition that had been going on for a long time got so bad that we could not make any other decision than to put him to sleep.ā The vagueness is really irksome. His damās side is Weltmeyer on top and Trakehner lines on the bottom, which I also liked for the diversity.
When I asked about the safety aspect of continuing to ride him, the neurologist told me she has another patient with comparable deficits who has placed in the top ten at not-Rolex! She clearly wouldnāt recommend that, but it is interesting/aghasting.
I miss my big red puppy dog.
12 Likes
Really hoping for some positive news for you. You deserve a break. Give Petey a treatie for me when you see him.
4 Likes
I assume that was a rhetorical question 
but the answer is the same as why they do furlong speed drills at the TB 2 year old sales:
āBecause the horse is for sale and this behavior has created either a financial reward for doing it, or a financial penalty for not doing itā
6 Likes
Hm. The definition of fancy or wow mover really varies wildly. I guess thatās just subjective.
3 Likes
Iām seeing this also. Young horses, who should be rising stars, arenāt making it out alive after about 6 years old. Itās terrible.
1 Like
Ugh. Please keep us updated. You might look into the Eagle ProSix. Used with great results on EPM horses so might convey some benefit in building different muscles, including stabilizers.
4 Likes
well shoot - fingers crossed for you. Your last post that I saw on your previous thread was so positive. really hoping all is well for you both! He is so cute.
2 Likes
Iām sorry you and Petey are traveling this path. I think trying the Eagle ProSix may help since he is borderline case. Sure Foot pads could also help.
4 Likes
Wishing for the best outcome for both you and him. Iāve followed along in your other thread and Iām really hoping for the best news possible! Petey reminds me of my previous WB (and his breeding was similar).
2 Likes
I donāt know if this comment is directed at Libby or not, but if it is: objectively her horse is a fancy/wow mover. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though since Iām not sure and the forumās reply function is so wonky sometimes. 
Re: Willesdon & IPEsqās conversation about young horses being in a frameā¦ It really bulks their price up. Unbroke but handled nice 3 y/o WB might get 10-15k if sold out of the right breederās barn. Started and in a program going W/T/C and they get bumped up to 20-50k, price seems to vary wildly based on connections. Just my observation having helped my friend shop for a nice 3-4 y/o WB. She preferred started and once they were started the prices jumped up significantly.
Semi-related but I have my own nice WB that Iāve owned since she was 6 months old. I know her damline well and have seen a few foals from her dam, so know they tend to grow a little slower while looking physically mature. Filly went through a huge growth spurt her 4 y/o year so I barely did anything with her. Last year was her first year in front of pros and they would say things like āhm, sheās rising six? Sheās green for her ageā. I donāt think so, IMO, she is exactly where she needs to be. While thereās a benefit to stating horses young and appropriately, itād be really easy to physically push this horse along. She is huge and amenable, but Iād rather be able to still ride her in her teens and twenties.
10 Likes
