Getting a horse off of his forehand

[adsthelad]

Hi! I have a 14 year old 16.3 IDxWB who is pretty solidly built. He is also quite downhill, and leans SO much! He can just about go on a contact in walk and trot, but canter is a no-no. I’ve tried lots of different exercises with him, and some different bits but nothing really seemed to make a huge difference. Doesn’t help that whenever something starts to get a bit difficult and he fears he will start to use himself, his head goes up into the air and I have to wait for him to calm down.

I would really like to do a bit of low-level dressage with him, but I would really like to get him a bit lighter first. I’m not expecting him to ever completely carry himself, but it would be nice if it wasn’t me doing all the work. For the past few years I’ve just gotten on with it, but now I’m pretty much at my wit’s end and I don’t really enjoy my flatwork rides with him that much anymore. We have the odd good day but they are far and few between!

I’m looking for suggestions on how I can get him to use his back end and stop leaning on my hand all the time. Ideally I don’t want to buy more stuff for him, though I was looking at a blue iron twisted snaffle.

Stopping him leaning is mostly for me, but also partly for him because as he pulls down, the corners of his mouth end up getting split.

Thanks!

[beowulf]

canter cavalettis :yes: they are hard, so use them sparingly at first.

ideally, a trainer will know exactly what is causing the leaning, but i am not above putting a horse who doesn’t “get” contact in side reins for a while. including the leaners… they usually learn very quickly they can’t outlean sidereins. side-reins are the perfect tool in that they release when they are supposed to and are taut when they are supposed to be - they always have a better response/reaction time than human hands, and are very fair and simple for the horse to understand. i’ll also make them do trot/canter poles too, to get them used to using their body and balancing.

[Equibrit]

Do you realize what you are asking ? This is the basic reason for training a horse.
People spend many hours with teachers learning how to achieve this, and you imagine you can solve your problem here? Find a good teacher and learn.

[adsthelad]

beowulf - I didn’t think of those, will try them out! I have got a riding aid that I suppose is vaguely similar to side reins but rather than attaching to the sides of the girth it goes over the top of the head. I should use it more often!
Equibrit - I’m just looking for advice and suggestions on things that I can try, not the solution. I do have a teacher but even with them I never manage to get my horse off his forehand. on this site there are many people who all have different experiences, and what is the harm in asking for a bit of help?

[adsthelad]

accidentally double posted.

[Sister7]

I see going on the forehand and leaning/pulling as two different problems. Shifting your horses balance off the forehand takes correct riding and time. Sometimes lots of time, especially for a naturally downhill horse. He needs to build up the strength to carry himself in that balance.

For the leaning/pulling, first, do not change to a harsher bit. This is not a bit severity problem. It really worries me that you say that his mouth is getting split. What kind of bit do you ride in now? I would make sure it’s a smooth snaffle of reasonable thickness.

The next thing you need to do is not let him lean and not let him pull by not holding contact at your end of the rein when he leans or pulls. If you can’t do this at a canter yet, then don’t canter. Work on establishing rhythm and relaxation at the walk and trot. Don’t worry about putting him on the bit.

Finding a local dressage coach would be very valuable as you work through this.

[adsthelad]

Thanks, yes I was saying earlier today to a friend that I don’t want to keep trying harsher bits because it’s not fair to him! He is currently in a Neue Schule Verbindend, it is the thinner diameter but in a thicker bit I have no brakes - he completely ignores it.

Sorry if I sound ignorant, but do you mean let the reins go loose or something different? I think I might avoid cantering for now, that’s a good idea. Thank you

I was considering changing my instructor for now, I will ask around at my yard for who people would recommend.

[BatataHead]

[QUOTE=adsthelad;8624406]
He is currently in a Neue Schule Verbindend, it is the thinner diameter but in a thicker bit I have no brakes - he completely ignores it.[/QUOTE]

Does your bit look like this?
http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=40

Even if it is a thinner diameter I’m surprised he’s getting cracks in his lips - is it possible he’s getting pinched in some way?

I’ve found that lots of quick transitions help (6 strides trot, 6 walk, 6 trot, halt, 6 trot, etc). I count aloud b/c it is too easy to cheat and add extra strides. This keeps my horse mentally sharp and he naturally begins to shift his weight back so he’s ready/in position for what might come next. However, it is hard work so include plenty of breaks.

I alternate between walking on a loose rein or a brisk canter in half seat using the whole arena (our main arena is very large). The canter is more of a mental break, and the walking for when he needs a physical break (the OTTB in him I think craves a good brisk canter to reset).

I think the frequent transitions will help with his brakes, as well.

[ThreeFigs]

I second Batatahead’s suggestions!

My (former jumper) gelding came with no brakes installed, a back injury and an overloaded forehand due to the injury. His rear end was atrophied. His brakes were SO bad that Coach and I “installed” them by riding him into arena walls and corners while applying half-halts or full halts. We could even do this outside in the arena, because he WOULD not jump. So at first our down transitions were nearly always towards walls or rails. Pretty soon he understood.

I assume your horse is a jumper – so riding towards outside perimeter fences might give him the wrong idea!

I spent a lot of time riding him up and down hills to strengthen his back and rear end. IMO, the horse who’s heavy in the bridle has not learned to use his rear end and carry himself. He relies on the rider to “hold him up”. Also, often the rider has not trained and ridden the horse in a way that encourages him to carry himself. A clever dressage trainer helps.

OP, the device that goes over your horse’s head – is it called a Neck Stretcher? Or is it a Chambon or Gogue? Those can offer temporary help (I used a Gogue on my guy maybe twice but did not care for it), but they’re no substitute for thoughtful riding.

These horses can be fixed and it won’t take a harsh bit to do it. I use the Neue Schule Tranz angled lozenge bit on my guy. He likes it!

[GraceLikeRain]

There are a lot of great threads that should come up if you do a quick search. The biggest challenge I find with these threads (not this one so far) is that people often recommend exercises that are helpful but far beyond a horses current skill level. If a horse isn’t consistent in the contact and is diving on to the forehand at the canter, recommending walk-canter transitions certainly isn’t in order!

I ride a 17.2 horse who is much further along in his training but I am new to him so sometimes I struggle to keep him off his forehand. Personally, I’ve found it more effective to focus on my body and aids rather than on what I should or shouldn’t be asking of him. With such a large long horse I’ve found that my seat needs to move much more than I realized. I was accidentally restricting him with my seat, he would hollow his back, and then I had 1,400 lbs dumped on to his front end. Developing more freedom in my seat to swing the entire duration of his massive canter stride without sacrificing a soft but solid outside rein was a critical first step for us.

Sharing videos for critique isn’t enjoyable for some people but do you have anyone who can video you at home? Watching yourself with a really critical eye may reveal ways that you can be more solid and supportive in your aids as he develops balance and strength.

[cleozowner]

My first thought reading your post about a large, older, heavy horse refusing to rock back on his hocks is to check his hocks. If he is refusing to do it so much that he is hurting/damaging his mouth, he might be doing it because using his hocks (or something else physical) hurts even more.

[CFFarm]

As NO wrote, paraphrased: Do gymnastic exercises in an ordered manner, without haste, or otherwise it will result in nothing.

[merrygoround]

This is a situation where you need to rethink your riding skills. Brakes do not come from the reins and bit, they come from your body. This is a process you would find easier to learn with help. you also need to think of progressive trot work, that will allow you to do lateral work which will build his strength. There have been horses in my life that I never asked to canter until shoulder in was in place.

However the operative word in transitions and lateral work is correct, unless you are doing these exercises correctly you are wasting your time.

[adsthelad]

Batatahead - yes that’s the one, with a 12mm diameter. I don’t know how it would pinch, as it splits in the inside corners. As for the transitions - counting aloud is a good idea, might help me discipline myself for keeping them going. Thanks for your suggestions - very helpful!
ThreeFigs - my horse really I think was bred to hunt, he jumps well but the fence around my arena are pretty high so I don’t think he would bother with jumping them. He’s definitely become used to me holding him up now! There are lots of hills around here, including a few really steep ones that definitely make him work hard. The riding aid that I have is the Equiami riding aid -http://www.equiami.com/index.php/riding-aid and I often have it quite loose so it only really comes into action when he throws his head all the way up.
GraceLikeRain - it might be that I’m restricting him with my position. I end up tipped forwards quite often which is a terrible habit of mine.
cleozowner - I hadn’t actually thought of that, he has his back treated roughly every 3 months (though this does not really cause him pain) but maybe it could be something else.
CFFarm - words of wisdom!
merrygoround - my horse is very good with listening to my body aids for trot down into walk and possibly also canter to trot, but walk to halt doesn’t happen. Am trying to teach him this. He is decent at leg yield, turn on the forehand - basic lateral work, but could definitely do with some work.

Again, thanks everyone for all your help!

[Valentina_32926]

People will disagree with me but this is what my GP trainer had me do with my Swedish mare - I took one rein (usually inside rein) and “bumped” the rein -DOWN. She would toss her head up but since I maintained outside rein contact steady she would immediately come off forehand and be on contact.

[QUOTE=adsthelad;8624381]
beowulf - I didn’t think of those, will try them out! I have got a riding aid that I suppose is vaguely similar to side reins but rather than attaching to the sides of the girth it goes over the top of the head. I should use it more often!
Equibrit - I’m just looking for advice and suggestions on things that I can try, not the solution. I do have a teacher but even with them I never manage to get my horse off his forehand. on this site there are many people who all have different experiences, and what is the harm in asking for a bit of help?[/QUOTE]

[adsthelad]

[QUOTE=Valentina_32926;8625788]
I took one rein (usually inside rein) and “bumped” the rein -DOWN. [/QUOTE]

What do you mean by this, as in you gave it a short tug?

[SuzieQNutter]

Of course he will one day do it.

It is totally possible as it has to do with the skill of your instructor and the skill of his rider.

Sorry but if it is as bad as you say your instructor is not helping.

If you are using a chambon it is really a lunging aid for teaching them to lower their head. It is also wonderful for letting them not work and lean.

I will also say something controvercial.

Sidereins with elastic or rubber rings teach a horse to leanand pull.

Why?

Horses learn from a release of pressure. They pull, the elastic gives and voila they are taught to pull and lean. This is what you are doing with your reins. Yes we have to give when riding however you are giving at the incorrect time, which your instructor should have picked up.

Solid sidereins. It is not sidereins that kill and maim horses. It is people using sidereins incorrectly who kill and maim horses. So you need to be taught to use them and it sounds like your instructor is not the one to do this.

Solid reins never pull back and neither should you when riding. They only release when the horse submits which is the correct time when riding.

The sidereins are never set to pull a horse’s head in. Neither should you when riding.

Now as someone above said this may be an exercise above the horses capabilities. If so you are in the realm of danger because to hold until they release, if they don’t understand can cause a horse to rear. They can go over backwards. So always think of where their mind is at when applying pressure with the reins.

I hope that all makes sense and is not as clear as mud.

[SuzieQNutter]

The first exercise for you to do is get a friend to be the horse. You hold the reins. They pull and pull and pull and then release at random. You have to hold when they pull. When they release there is to be no going back with your elbows.

If your elbows go back that means you are pulling and not holding. This is a skill that does not come naturally. Naturally if you put a rope in someone’s hand they pull it.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=adsthelad;8625797]
What do you mean by this, as in you gave it a short tug? :)[/QUOTE]

It means purposely hurting the horse in the mouth (bar/soft palate if single jointed) so it has to let go of the contact on that side.
Valentina’s mare then raised her head high (hollow her back) but since Valentina had kept the outside rein, the horse stayed in a frame…

Which is wrong on so many levels… At least she knows a lot of us wouldn’t agree on that “technique”…

Horses don’t get off their forehand by being jabbed in the mouth… They come off the forehand when they sit back, get rounder and use themselves. That’s achieved with cues from the riders’s legs, seat and core.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=alibi_18;8625862]
It means purposely hurting the horse in the mouth (bar/soft palate if single jointed) so it has to let go of the contact on that side.
Valentina’s mare then raised her head high (hollow her back) but since Valentina had kept the outside rein, the horse stayed in a frame…

Which is wrong on so many levels… At least she knows a lot of us wouldn’t agree on that “technique”…

Horses don’t get off their forehand by being jabbed in the mouth… They come off the forehand when they sit back, get rounder and use themselves. That’s achieved with cues from the riders’s legs, seat and core.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The way to lift a horse’s head in sitting trot is with your stomach muscles. In rising trot you use your inside leg.