Getting a younger crowd interested in CDE or Carriage Driving

The cost of driving!

I read here and there people saying that the cost of getting into driving or showing is so high! I hate to burst people’s bubbles but driving is still on the cheap end of equine sports.

I did an average cost by cost look at different equine sports for an article I am writing for equine journal and found driving to be rather low compared to other disciplines.
You may be shocked by me saying this, but I am sure you would be flabbergasted by how much your average “A” circuit competitor is paying out week after week either at home or at a show.

Trust me; I am far happier my children are into driving than Hunters!
Robert

[QUOTE=tandem4u;3554259]
I read here and there people saying that the cost of getting into driving or showing is so high! I hate to burst people’s bubbles but driving is still on the cheap end of equine sports.

I did an average cost by cost look at different equine sports for an article I am writing for equine journal and found driving to be rather low compared to other disciplines.
You may be shocked by me saying this, but I am sure you would be flabbergasted by how much your average “A” circuit competitor is paying out week after week either at home or at a show.

Trust me; I am far happier my children are into driving than Hunters!
Robert[/QUOTE]

True, but the elite levels of competition are something else entirely. The lower levels can be done on the cheap.

Around here, I can show at the local level h/j or dressage shows with relatively cheap entry fees. I can hack to the show grounds for free, then go in (and sometimes even win) with workmanlike used tack and ebay clothing that cost me less than $600 total – including saddle, bridle, and show outfit.

I don’t know where I could get an appropriate and safe CDE setup for that amount of money. The carriage alone would probably cost more than that.

I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with the sport that makes it unattractive to young people. It’s just not something most young people can do without significant outside support.

Tandem,

What a wonderful idea! I will print out the information for the Scurry Challenge and bring it to the October Club meeting. We are trying to start an annual “Playday” show with cones, a marathon, a utility/trail course, games (like jousting, bean barrels, cones fishing, etc…) and maybe we can aid the Scurry Challenge. The show will be a nice offset from our Driven Dressage show, which is more serious.

Thanks Driving NJ for your kind words,

I grew up with the idea of if you want something, you WORK for it. That mindset has given me opportunities that many would dream for.

I have more to say but statistics homework beckons…

QUOTE=Sithly;3554577]True, but the elite levels of competition are something else entirely. The lower levels can be done on the cheap.

I quoted your average “A” circuit vs. CDE’s not a local level show. Sure the local level can be cheap even for us drivers.

I think there is a great deal wrong with making this sport “unattractive” to young people! Not all young people are without money! Are we really talking about age here or how much money you need to have to be in this sport?

Money is not an issue! You can buy a driving horse, cart, harness and all the trimmings cheap, still put it all in your truck & horse trailer and go to shows!

The trouble is this sport “needs” young blood!!! Like it or not. We need to find a place for them. If you don’t like young folks at your CDE’s or pleasure shows fine! But don’t kick them out on the curb. We need them to support driving down the road!
Shows are being canceled left, right and center because of lack of interest! And here we are saying it’s ok to look “unattractive” to people!!!

This sport is in trouble, it’s not growing at the speed it should be! Why is that? There are more driving classes for having your dog drive with you rather than your child or grandchild!

Driving needs youngsters in its ranks to fill those spots of people that are dieing or leaving the sport due to age or health reasons!
Think of all the drivers that have passed away this year alone and ask who is filling there shoes? Who will fill your shoes???

The trouble with looking unattractive to some often results in looking ugly to all.
Robert

Can we ID the “looking unattractive” please? At least around here, we welcome new drivers, try to provide them with resources to get started and welcome horseless drivers into organizing teams where they ask to be involved.

It is unfortanate that the CDE aspect of the sport has evolved to be so much more technical than it was that a purpose built marathon 4-wheel vehicle is needed almost from day 1 and that does add a lot to the cost of start-up, but if you don’t have to do CDEs, there are often a lot of other driving activities that don’t require that level of expendature. There are still local shows and ADTs around that you can do much less expensively, just driving for fun doesn’t have to be cost prohibitive. That’s more limited by the fact its harder to just drive down the road with the crazy nuts out there.

Around here Juniors actually DO have more opportunities in local shows than dogs :yes: as most shows are still holding a Junior to Drive class if not division even if there are only a couple of kids showing.

What we are seeing is more drivers wanting to just go driving rather than get into showing. What they are looking for is someone to provide them with a place to do that.

For people finding starting in CDEs expensive, there is an alternative - navigating. Where you can borrow a riding horse and equipment to show, you are right, most of us aren’t going to hand off our horses etc so you can show at one of the few local showing opportunities, but there are a lot of people who’d love to hook up with a permanent team member/back stepper both for competition and just driving. So you gain opportunites to drive and likely learn more about how to drive. With a little effort your driver would likely teach you more about driving and it is not at all uncommon to see navigators handed the reins for club drives, ADTs or even classes at pleasure shows.

As has been stated by several… make opportunities by getting involved, asking, and helping make things happen.

I’d LOVE to have a class where I could take my grandchild instead of my dog BUT my dog happily rides in a basket; my daughter would insist on a safety seat for my granddaughter. Nonetheless I now wonder why there aren’t parent/child/grandchild classes. That would be neat :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Ashemont;3555212]
I’d LOVE to have a class where I could take my grandchild instead of my dog BUT my dog happily rides in a basket; my daughter would insist on a safety seat for my granddaughter. Nonetheless I now wonder why there aren’t parent/child/grandchild classes. That would be neat :)[/QUOTE]

Not to be picky here, but NO CHILD should be riding in an anchored safety seat, tied to a horse-drawn vehicle.

This is NOT EVER, NOT FOR ANY REASON!

Technically NO PERSON should be anchored, hard and fast, in a horse-drawn vehicle. ADS rules against it with the safety strap only being firmly anchored on one side with the loose side held by groom or navigator behind the driver.

If a child is too small to hold on, stay seated by himself, they need their OWN adult to be riding along, caring for them. Driver is busy with horse, can’t split their attention with horse and child. Unsafe, unwise to be doing that because Driver is going to miss something important, turning it into an O S*** moment with injuries likely.

If there is no 2nd adult, older child to manage smaller child, then they don’t get to go carriage riding until there is a 2nd child manager around.

Everyone LOOVES to tell of children out with horses “before they could walk” and the photos are cute. Yet basic safety needs to be considered. Child can’t save themselves, and driver is no help in a situation with horse being stupid. Even riding a tiny child needs two people, one to lead and one to keep holding him on equine.

We have been thru all these carriage drive settings, had the quietest, most fail-safe equine to use. Still not worth the chance of hurting the child by not having two adults on the drive.

Kind of went sideways here, way off-topic, but safety for tiny child needs to be brought up. Safety seat SOUNDS good, but actually very dangerous on horse-drawn vehicles. Horses are not cars, have their own minds.

Why not promote pleasure driving first, why promote competition?

And who buys a horse, learns to ride and jumps into the A circuit in one step?

First spark an interest in pleasure driving and go from there.

Technically NO PERSON should be anchored, hard and fast, in a horse-drawn vehicle. ADS rules against it with the safety strap only being firmly anchored on one side with the loose side held by groom or navigator behind the driver.

I don’t think we need an ADS rule to remind us not to be dumb! Lol

And I think Ashmont is wise enought not to do anything silly like that.

Robert

[QUOTE=tandem4u;3555530]

And I think Ashmont is wise enought not to do anything silly like that.

Robert[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Robert :slight_smile: No, I would NEVER anchor a child or anyone to a horse/carriage but my daughter is extremely protective and equates carriages to cars. She does let our very horsey granddaughter sit on the horses (with someone at her side as well as someone leading the horse) and she has ridden in a carriage while being held - but only under very controlled conditions. I’m sure once she is just a bit older her mom will relax a little more. She’s going to have to because the child takes after her Grammy and is horse-crazy! Her favorite word is pohnty (pony) :smiley:

I think if an adult/child or grandchild class were added it would be prudent to stipulate an age at which the child could ride without being held. Wouldn’t want something that could be so positive having a negative outcome :no:

I drive for pleasure…I showed tons under saddle for many years…driving, for me, is fun.

I’ve shown driving, it was fun…but hot. Pretending to be in England while dying under wool, robe, gloves, hat and jacket…while it’s 95 outside isn’t my idea of fun. Too bloody hot.

I like sharing driving with friends and strangers…going down the road in a nice carriage pulled by my Gelderlander (Purchased from Tandem4u by the way)

A lot of people don’t want to show…a lot of kids don’t want to show but are happy having fun with friends.

I think we do a disservice by concentrating bringing people in with the idea of competition as the “reason” for driving. A pony pulling a cart with friends along is a lot more fun than “drivers to line up on the judge” wearing woolies and a rug.

smallgrosso.jpg

I remain confused by the original posting and have got even more puzzled by some of the responses.

The OP asked for a mentor and asked for ways to promote driving to a younger crowd.

There seems to be a presumption that there’s something wrong with the sport/hobby of driving and something amiss that needs to be addressed.

If that’s the case, then it must have whistled past me so fast, I never saw it, recognised it, or even knew it was there!

Fact:

Driving is an elite minority activity with a small (though expanding) market or interest-group.

Fact:

It’s an expensive hobby/sport

Fact:

As such it’s never going to be easy to come by

Fact: its never going to be a popularist activity.

Fact: its never going to be cheap

Fact:

There’s no detriment nor harm in any or all of the above.

The OP talked about getting “lucked” into finding mentors and I personally think that’s a curious approach or expectation.

A mentor is “just” a wise or trusted counsellor or teacher who can encourage, coach and support on a one to one basis. They don’t however just happen along. Unless of course you’re happy being a victim of circumstances and life.

Anything worth having is worth working for and with mentoring, the mentee must take the initative and do the leg work in the relationship. The final responsibility for actions taken, as a result of mentoring, lies with the mentee.

[QUOTE=tandem4u;3554920]
QUOTE=Sithly;3554577]True, but the elite levels of competition are something else entirely. The lower levels can be done on the cheap.[/QUOTE]

Comparatively, driving is always going to be dearer than riding. So if you compare apples to apples rather than apples to pears, if you’re driving just for pleasure or riding just for pleasure, then the cost is higher with driving. Always will be.

Go up through the competition levels and it’s the same all the way through.

I think there is a great deal wrong with making this sport “unattractive” to young people!
It’s not been “made” unattractive??? Or did I miss something? Why do you think that???

Money is not an issue! You can buy a driving horse, cart, harness and all the trimmings cheap, still put it all in your truck & horse trailer and go to shows!
I disagree entirely. Its a total myth to think that owning a horse, let alone driving is something that can be done on the cheap. It takes a heck of a lot of available income and is an expensive luxury lifestyle hobby or sport.

The trouble is this sport “needs” young blood!!! Like it or not.
Does it??? Why? Cite the evidence?

Our last HDT was Windsor had 120 entries and the majority of those competing were under the age of 35. There were so many entries that they had to use 3 dressage arenas for that phase. Tracey Fletcher who won singles ponies and was last year’s intermediate pony champion is a young driver and her backstepper Rhian Fletcher is younger still.

Shows are being canceled left, right and center because of lack of interest! And here we are saying it’s ok to look “unattractive” to people!!!
Did someone say that??? If a show isn’t being supported then what’s wrong with cancelling it?

This sport is in trouble, it’s not growing at the speed it should be!
Is it??? Cite the evidence? It’s a growing market so why do you think its in trouble??? What speed do you think it should grow at? Why do you think rapid growth is good for the sport??

Why is that? There are more driving classes for having your dog drive with you rather than your child or grandchild!
We don’t have classes here with dogs at all and there’s no evidence that having a class with a grandchild will mean there’s going to be rapid growth in what is a minority, elite and expensive activity.

Driving needs youngsters in its ranks to fill those spots of people that are dieing or leaving the sport due to age or health reasons!
NOT TRUE. You clearly haven’t read the facts relating to the driving market.

Think of all the drivers that have passed away this year alone and ask who is filling there shoes? Who will fill your shoes???
I’ve taught 80 folks this year alone who are under 16. I know that because I keep market and customer management information.

The trouble with looking unattractive to some often results in looking ugly to all.
I lost the plot here. The international driving market is a growing market and there’s new folks and young folks entering it all the time.

A very interesting thread!

I am in my 40s, and started driving 5 years ago after seeing an Arena Driving exhibition. I’ve ended up just doing pleasure driving (and I never thought I’d wear a be-ribboned hat and long skirt! Not my style!) and I LOVE it.

On the youth note, though, I am astonished to hear discussion of “16-24 year olds”. Heck, I’m one of the younger people at any event I’ve gone to!!! Wonderful people in the driving world, but I’d love to meet more 30-40 year olds in the sport! Maybe they’re all doing wild and crazy CDEs or something.

The hardest thing for me is that driving is a bit more complicated than riding. I can only board at barns that support driving; I can’t afford a trailer that will hold both horse(s) and vehicles, so I am very limited in the events I can attend; I have a very small number of friends and acquaintances that I can call upon to come out driving with me, whether on the roads or at an event.

On the plus side I have gone to several clinics where horse and vehicle were available to “borrow”, so I could benefit from the lessons without the expense of shipping. And the people I have met in the driving world are so down to earth, fun, and helpful. There is a camraderie at the pleasure shows much more than at any riding show I’ve been to.

So I will continue driving at home, and look forward to a future time or place when I may be able to participate more fully. By then I’ll be 60, like everyone else!! :smiley:

My son, just turned 12, is fascinated by the combined driving that we see when we go to watch the Fair Hill *** event. He took about a million pictures of the combined driving horses last year, using my camera. He’s been dying to get his pony trained to drive and learn how to drive himself.

But I got looking into it, and it just doesn’t seem feasible for us, mostly due to logistics. For example, I have a Suburban and a 2 horse bumper pull. To do a lot of hauling to driving venues, it looks like I would need to switch to a pickup with a gooseneck, just as a way of hauling a carriage around with us.

The other thing is that we board. And while it is pretty easy to find a boarding barn around here with an indoor and an outdoor ring for riding, I can’t think of any boarding facilities that are within a reasonable distance of our house that are located in an area where we could go driving and not have to deal with a lot of car traffic.

Maybe someday, when I win the lottery and can buy a whole new rig and move to a spot like Southern Pines or Aiken with their driving trails, we’ll give the driving thing a try. :slight_smile: I’d like to try it myself, but logistically, especially as a boarder, it seems too overwhelming to even get started, at least compared to riding horses.

I have been reading this thread with great interest.

I live in Central Oregon. Not a hot bed of driving by any means! Barely even warm.

I am extraordinarily fortunate on many levels. I grew up with a Mother that drove. I had no interest, I was a RIDER! But it was always around and I knew about it. I would help her when she needed it, but it was kind of my parents “thing”.

Fast forward many years. My Mother imported a pair of German WB’s. Well, they didn’t work out as a pair and she ended up with a very nice single. She was a little nervous to take him to their first CDE, so she “made” me drive him. I protested that I didn’t have a clue about driving in a CDE to no avail. To make a long story short, she never got her horse back! I was hooked! (She is 82 and still wanting another pair, heaven help me).

Okay, I am 48 now and train driving horses for a living. I would love a working student. Or a young person that was interested in driving. Or an adult that just wanted to learn for that matter. I have a couple of horses that I give lessons with.

I see most of the young drivers in the Northwest driving minis, don’t you think Leia? I am racking (or is it wracking?) my brain to even come up with 20somethings that drive. Granted, I would only see them at CDE’s. I would me more than willing to host a young driver for a couple of weeks in the summer.

So, Diana… come on up to Oregon! Maybe Fancy and Apollo would make a pair!

I realize I didn’t really address Diana’s question, sorry… if you do come up with something I would be more than willing to help!

no point really

My child drove when she was 8. She loved it and gets excited every time she gets to drive. She is now 12.

Even when there is equipment and pony available it is more of a “to do” to drive than to ride. Takes two knowlegable people, driver and groom. Harnessing and hitching takes more time than throwing on a saddle. this severly limits the driving.

My child has multiple mentor/coach/trainer types willing and eager to give her riding help at a moments notice but not so for driving.

We have recently stumbled into team penning/sorting. Here we can tack up in 15 minutes, compete locally for $20 and have an absolute blast. all family members get in the act too. this is a STARK contrast to driving.

there is no problem getting kids excited about driving. the problem is just supporting or not inhibiting the enthusiasm.
Plenty of baby boomer parents and grandparents have the time and $ to support a young driver but it doesn’t happen often.

Again, I’m not trying to make any point here, just rambling.

Dick

The part where it’s lucky is when you live in one of the many places in the U.S. where there may only BE one or two drivers in the entire state. Finding one of them and then having that person be not only someone you respect and wish to learn from but be willing to teach you as well is, indeed, “lucky.”

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3557673]Our last HDT was Windsor had 120 entries and the majority of those competing were under the age of 35. There were so many entries that they had to use 3 dressage arenas for that phase. Tracey Fletcher who won singles ponies and was last year’s intermediate pony champion is a young driver and her backstepper Rhian Fletcher is younger still.

Shows are being canceled left, right and center because of lack of interest!..

…If a show isn’t being supported then what’s wrong with cancelling it?[/QUOTE]
The situation here isn’t like it apparently is over there. The shows that are being cancelled are major upper level events like Gladstone, and they’re being cancelled because there’s not enough drivers able to fill them, not because the show itself isn’t a good one. When you live somewhere that may only have one or two driving events in an entire year the cancellation of one of them means the sport may as well have died in that area. :no: No competitions equals no trainers equals no place for new students to learn how to drive equals no driving. Period. I talk to a lot of people stuck in that position and the sort of folks left to “train” a new driver in that situation are scary. :eek: Sure a lot of this is due to the current American economy, but still!

Most of the new growth in my area (WA/OR) is due to local organizers highly encouraging the participation of miniature horses - yes Thomas, I know how you feel about that :lol:. Since they are too small to ride most miniatures are already trained to drive and plenty of their owners are sick and tired of the breed competitions so it was an excellent marketing move to tap into that pool for new converts. We now form a third of the entries at most of my local CDE’s and without us several new events have said they wouldn’t have been able to get off the ground. Minis are much cheaper to feed, can be housed on smaller acreage, can be driven most places a riding horse can go, and you can fit their carriages and equipment in a standard two-horse straight-load trailer if you have to. The only problem with driving them is that they are not very well accepted back East- you may find there are no competitions that are willing to let you enter. This always seems a little odd to me when they claim to be so desperate for entries. :uhoh: After all, our money is as green as anyone else’s and we’ve proven here in the NW how tough these little horses can be! I’m moving mine up to Intermediate next year after having won four out of five Preliminary CDE’s this year with scores that consistently put me at least third or fourth in the Single Horse and Single Pony categories over the same courses. The horses can do it, no question. They take the same skills and the same techniques as their larger counterparts, just much less cash and space to maintain. Why not invite them to play? :confused: Sure most of them will not make the upper levels, but so what? Training Level is (or should be, at least) the bread and butter of our sport.

We really do need new drivers of whatever age. If the sport doesn’t grow, fine. But if it continues to shrink at some point the population will become unable to support itself and carriage driving in the U.S. will die. I don’t know about you but I’d hate to see that!

Rather than focusing on age, let’s focus on simply attracting new drivers.

Leia

[QUOTE=hobbyhorse23;3560042]

Most of the new growth in my area (WA/OR) is due to local organizers highly encouraging the participation of miniature horses - yes Thomas, I know how you feel about that :lol:. [/QUOTE] :confused: I’ve a heck of a lot of ponies and have driven them all my life. Its the use of the term miniature horse to describe a pony that I take exception to. :yes:

We really do need new drivers of whatever age. If the sport doesn’t grow, fine. But if it continues to shrink at some point the population will become unable to support itself and carriage driving in the U.S. will die. I don’t know about you but I’d hate to see that!
My understanding is that whilst there may well be regional variations that carriage driving generally is a growing market.

Rather than focusing on age, let’s focus on simply attracting new drivers.
Only if the growth isn’t to the detriment of the horse and the sport.

I’ve been reading the discussion with interest. I don’t have any answers per se, but I can add some input from “younger” drivers.

Aaron and I got involved with driving during college, when we were in our early 20s. We both majored in animal science, with a focus on equine studies. One of the classes in the program was “Driving the Single Horse.” Aaron and I had the opportunity to work for the instructor, Audrey Bostwick, during the summers, traveling to Devon, the Canadian Classic, and Walnut Hill. It was a wonderful introduction to driving and I feel it started us out at the “top of the game”–we learned all the ins and outs of carriages, harness, and turnout.

We purchased our first driving pony, Coco, from Audrey after we graduated. Of course, since both Aaron and I came from an eventing background, CDE was a natural sport to try. However, we were just out of college and starting our careers; it was a huge financial undertaking.

Now, 5 years later (we are now in our late 20s) and with our 2nd driving pony, Merlin, we’ve purchased many of the things we need, but we know down the road we are looking at needing a new marathon carriage, another presentation vehicle if we move up to Advanced, etc. It is overwhelming to think about.

Here are my thoughts on what keeps “younger” people from getting involved in driving–

Amount of Knowledge Needed–Learning to ride is so easy compared to learning to drive. Not the actual skills, but the process of finding an instructor, finding the right horse (riding horses are a dime a dozen, driving horses, not so much), and getting the appropriate carriage and equipment (the options are endless and it is overwhelming when you’re not sure what you need or want). I think it is often a factor of being in the right place at the right time–finding someone who can mentor you and finding the right horse to participate with in the sport.

Logistics–Many riders are quite content with a barn that just has a riding ring. But how many drivers would be happy ONLY driving in an arena? Plus, how many arenas lack the correct footing for driving (ever tried driving in an arena designed for dressage–footing is too deep)? Also, many boarding barn don’t cater to driving horses and may not want them on the premises due to them “scaring” the other horses.

Aaron and I finally have the right set up to properly prepare for CDEs–our own farm with a grass dressage arena, access to 30 acres to drive on across the road, and access to a local horse park (15 min away) that has multiple stone dust arenas, miles and miles of trails suitable for carriages, and nice, big hills to condition on. But it’s taken us 8 years to arrive at this point.

Cost–What does an average marathon carriage cost? Typically $5-6K, and that’s on the inexpensive side. Add in quality harness (around $1K) and you’ve got a substantial investment before you even add in the horse. For a third of that, you can buy a lovely saddle and bridle, which is most more feasible for the majority of horse owners out there.

And then’s there is transportation…getting the appropriate vehicle and trailer that can handle a horse and carriage. And then, if you are CDEing, you may have another carriage and some type of ATV. It’s much easier to just load one horse in the trailer to ride and go!

Competitions–While CDEs are not terribly expensive in the scheme of things, they are cost prohibitive to those of us who are used to doing one-day horse trials or shows. I heard someone make an interesting comment at the Laurels–she said that she doesn’t understand why CDEs don’t raise their entry fees to be comparable to h/j or similar type show circuits; well CDEs could significantly raise their entries, but they would shut out all of us who can’t afford to show on the big circuits (which is why we found a new sport). It’s a catch 22.

Man Power–CDE is a sport that requires a team. You cannot do it alone, like many other horse sports. I do think it is neat how many couples get involved–the majority of our friends do this as a husband/wife team. It is a nice dynamic to the otherwise female-dominated horse world. :smiley:

That’s just the stuff off the top of my head. A few more thoughts on getting younger drivers involved–

–One, from what I see up here, there are new faces getting involved in CDEs at every show. Yes, entries are down, but I truly believe that is due to the current economic situation, not lack of interest. We certainly had to cut back this year due to finances, but we were able to work for other drivers at CDEs or volunteer.

–I don’t understand why the focus need to necessarily be on juniors or young drivers. I think it should be on drivers of all ages. Just because someone doesn’t pick up driving as a teenager, doesn’t mean that they won’t do it later on in life.

–I love the sport of CDE how it is now…down-to-earth, friendly, a lot of people competing with a horse they’ve brought along themselves. It reminds me of how eventing used to be. I agree with Thomas–growth is fine, but we need to stay true to the roots of the sport. Not change the sport to attract more people. Driving doesn’t seem to be doing this, but eventing did (short format anyone?) and it’s been a huge detriment to that sport. :frowning:

Whew! Sorry for the long-winded post.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3560065]
:confused: I’ve a heck of a lot of ponies and have driven them all my life. Its the use of the term miniature horse to describe a pony that I take exception to. :yes: [/QUOTE]

I know! :smiley: