Getting and maintaining impulsion...HELP!!

[Countrywood]

There are horses who react like #20 above (mine is like that), until he is really warmed up he won’t accept whip, and even then if used hard he will kick out/buck, or slow down.

Instead of WHACKING him with the whip , keep annoying him with taps, tap tap tap tap with whip behind your leg no matter what he does , until he gets sick of it and moves off, as he moves off use leg lightly to remind him you move off from leg aid then take leg off and ride, if he slows down, use leg again to remind to move, if he stops or balks or slows even more, then go back to tap tap tap tap tap.

I did this with mine last 3 lessons and he moved off much nicer after 10 minutes from light leg or light whip aid . The hard booting kicks and hard whacks of whip can desensitize them to it or make them sour. If he kicked out at leg my trainer had me jerk him once as punishment, or kick him hard only if he does that as a punishment, not a hard kick for a stronger forward aid.

[Countrywood]

Imo there are two issues being addressed, one was impulsion, the other how to get lazy horse in front of leg, or moving off aids. They are kind of different though interrelated, a horse that wont’ move off leg aid, well that’s a riding question not really a dressage gait quality question, a horse that won’t move off leg or seat aid is unrideable in any discipline… It only relates to impulsion as in if he wont’ respond to a leg or seat aid, he will be difficult/exhausting to get impulsion from.

But impulsion itself is a strength and carrying and balance issue to improve the gaits and make capable of collection, built over time through training for it ( good training excersizes mentioned in some above posts )

[Rosie_B]

I’m going to offer an alternate view than most of the other posters…

I have struggled with this with my horse. He’s coming 6 and I started him myself and from the beginning he’s never really been the type that can come out of the barn and go forward freely. I thought this was an issue or a hole in his training, (and that is part of it), but it’s also a question of how he’s built. He’s got a high set neck and naturally goes around hollow. The initial years I didn’t worry too much about how forward he was, I just focused on relaxation and getting him to stretch into the hand, and usually, by the time he’d warmed up, once he was stretching and bending nicely, he’d be nicely forward.

Last summer I had a few lessons and clinics with some folks who were in the die hard ‘he needs to be more forward!!’ camp. And I started questioning my previous approach and started thinking he needs to come out and go forward, period. I worried less about relaxation and bending and more about forward. I did all possible variations of everything that everyone suggested above. None of it worked and in fact everything started to get worse. We started a downward spiral and both of us got super frustrated. In an effort to stop the negative spiral I started doing more cavaletti and jumping, and that helped, but it didn’t help with his forwardness on the flat at all.

After about 2 or 3 months of this, I got help from a western friend of mine. She immediately noticed that he was holding and wasn’t truly relaxed or accepting of my lateral aids. She had me return to what I had been doing before - establish relaxation and bending and only THEN ask for more forward. She had me push him quite drastically OVER with my inside aids (making what I wanted crystal clear), then straighten and ask him to go forward. Surprise surprise, once we’d done a bit of the lateral bending, he relaxed, he was loose, and he could go forward. I honestly think it was NOT POSSIBLE for him to go forward UNTIL he was relaxed and nicely soft to my lateral aids. I was trying to kick him forward when he couldn’t physically respond so it’s no wonder it didn’t work.

Now we have moved past that, and he comes out nicely forward but only because he’s relaxed and nicely soft through the body first… if he comes out sticky, I always establish the relaxation/bending first before worrying about forward.

This won’t work for every horse, but it’s what works for us, and it’s the only thing that works for us. My horse has a naturally high head carriage and used to have a big under neck (he was born that way), so for him relaxation both longitudinally and laterally HAS to come first.

Good luck!

[Countrywood]

I do find lateral work helps get my horse supple enough for a better forward,

Perhaps a better word than getting them forward to our aids, which can mean rushing around or faster (rather than the impulsion/ relaxation ) perhaps a better word would be getting them responsive to our aids.

[toady123]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;8613884]
This only works if you are committed to using only an ideal leg aid. No devolving to the escalating leg aid stuff. One perfect leg aid, then wham. Every time. Once they get the idea on the circle, you use the whole arena. The circle is used at first to establish an anticipation at every 1/4 circle, which is then transferred to the one correct leg aid.
Take the Spurs off. Of the horse is way behind you, the Spurs won’t work well anyway. You need to install a correct reaction to “naked calf”.[/QUOTE]

This was essentially going to me my suggestion as well.

This is a challenge that I have. I just started riding a new horse that gets REALLY stuck. Clenching and nagging with the legs makes him even worse. They need to learn that leg means go. And they go until they are told to do something else.

Don’t worry about his face too much. Keep the rein longer, have him in a nice round stretchy frame so he is lifted through his back (they can’t step bigger if they are hollow through their backs with their head in the air - in this moment they will just get faster).

Once he is round you ask with an active seat and nudge with the calf. If no reaction 2 smacks with the whip begin the leg. Hard if necessary so you get a reaction. If you get a reaction and then he immediately slows, tap tap with that whip until he gets the idea that he needs to move.

Resist the urge to keep kicking/squeezing. That just creates a dead sided horse. It is REALLY hard not to do this (trust me I know!) but it’s so important to eventually get them tuned into more subtle aids. The difference once you get it is remarkable.

Lots of transitions to practice. And you have to be on top of this EVERY MOMENT that you are riding. If he gets away with it sometimes he is not going to understand. Even at a free walk, he should be marching.

I find that counting is helpful to ensure they are keeping pace. 1,2,3,4, in the walk and make sure that his steps are meeting that pace. 1,2 in the trot same thing. This gives you a clear cue as to whether you are getting it or not.

[arlosmine]

If the horse is so behind the leg that they are ballistic to the “whack” with the whip, another useful method is:

(Again, you start with NO LEG AID)
Tap, tap, tapping directly behind your leg…escalating tapping pressure until the horse moves. The SECOND the horse goes forward, you stop tapping. The horse will slow down and you start again. The horse figures out that you leave him alone when he is forward.

Again, the operative concept is that you leave him alone when he is forward. No Fred Flintstone (maintenance leg).

Ultimately, the horse commences to go forward earlier in the tapping sequence, because they anticipate that you won’t stop buggin them until they go, and they seek the release of pressure (cessation of tapping).
ONLY then do you introduce the “ideal leg aid” as an early warning system that the annoying tapping is about to start.

[Countrywood]

Arlosmine,
the sequence sounds confusing (to the horse) in above, why wouldn’t you start with the ideal leg aid to go forward , then if they dont’ go forward, tap tap tap till the horse goes forward ? How do they know that “no leg aid” means forward ?? Imo, no leg aid can mean maintain the gait till another aid is given, the aid can be for more impulsion within the gait as well, it’s still an aid, no leg is lack of an aid, aka maintain what is going on till next aid? do you agree?

We dont’ want to have to nag by keeping leg on to maintain the gait once they go forward (respond) ; ideal is no leg on, but it seems realistic to have to refresh quality of the gait here and there with leg or seat (till next aid is given for whatever we want to do next)
.

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=PrinceSheik325;8607828]
RIGHT?!?! He can certainly be forward when he wants to be; he’s just super stubborn and sometimes very distracted. I’ve been working on whacking him with the crop when he is not producing energy. It does usually result in a buck, but he goes more forward after that. The funny thing about this horse is that as soon as we start jumping, he’s got energy for days. He’s just an underachiever on the flat. The upside to all of this is that my legs have never looked better. :-)[/QUOTE]

Go trail riding with friends who’s horses MOVE. He will want to go with them, make him wait by half halting him into balance, allow him forward and MAINTAIN that balance without being constantly in his mouth and then gradually he will lift his back and come through. He has to learn to maintain that balance when through, before you push him on to medium. Stop with all the nagging and beating, it just serves to make him tune you out. I solved the same problem by taking my horse hunting. She ended up leading the cantering field with the most amazing extended trot, and produced that in dressage tests during the summer. You are teaching your horse to use his body differently and he needs a reward when he is successful. Ask once and then relax the aides, you will learn how to quickly make and release adjustments as you go.

[arlosmine]

Country wood:
The idea is that this is used for a horse who is already confused/has an incorrect reaction to the leg aid: often one which results in the horse getting more balled-up behind the leg with each use of the leg. Often if they are REALLY smushed behind the leg, they are not in a good posture to go forward, and will get really mad if they are smacked hard.
I just gave a lesson this am to a student with such a mare (lazy and ballistic), we did this method with her last year to good effect. She’d get super mad, tense and try to unload you if you whacked her hard or kicked her super hard… counterproductive. She DID have a good reaction to being irritated with rhythmic tapping that get progressively harder until she moved. We started at a halt. It was just the ticket for her weird mentality. In her mind, she found a way to “turn off” the irritating tapping, which was kept below her “I’m going to blow up” threshold.

This excersize reintroduces the concept of leg aids by establishing a correct reaction to the whip first. The taps start out and can stay very light. There is an increase in pressure as they continue and a release upon movement. I know it seems odd, but I’ve used it countless times and it really works…and the horses pick up on the idea of staying in front of the leg one they are already forward and relaxed from an understood experience of the whip aid.
I think it works sometimes because the human cannot make the whip tap turn into a hold and squeeze, which causes this type of horse to suck back.
Ultimately, it does turn into the small calf aid before the tapping starts. You start with the tapping to be absolutely sure that every piece of the aid sequence in in place. Like dominoes. Then you reintroduce the ideal light leg aid as an “early warning system” that the tapping is about to start and will escalate until forward is achieved. It usually doesnt take very long at all to get from whip-minus leg to light leg, then tapping starts.

It’s a way too repattern both parties involved in the “stuckness”

[Countrywood]

thanks for the clarification…I have switched to the light tapping recently (last week) as my horse just gets ruder and ruder harder I use leg or whip, Iswear it’s become a game to him ( more fun than working, kick out or buck instead of forward from whip). But the tap tap tap irritates him , like a fly tickling does, and he has nothing to “fight” against, so eventually moves off from it, I do associate it though with a light leg aid, after a few rounds of it he was more responsive and forward from lighter leg or whip aid entire time( (he used to accept whip as an aid after he is warmed up and “into it” but getting him there was too ugly with too much hard legs or whip needed the tap tap is better, hope not to have to use it so often within a few weeks)

[BatataHead]

Arlosmine and Countrywood - I tried the light tap tapping a couple of rides (not in the circle pattern) and seems to be working well for prompt upward transitions. He accepts and responds to the tapping / no fits or balling up like he was doing with a stronger whip aid.

Today he sprung nicely forward with just the lightest closing of the leg. However, the adjustability within a gait is not so good. He’s not sucking back, but if I want a bigger trot, there is a delay and inconsistency of response that make me think he’s confused. It’s like he thinks “leg on” = go up a gait only and if he’s already there, more leg doesn’t consistently send him more forward. I have to get more trot mostly by adjusting my posture and rising with a longer swing/stroke.

So, something has gone wrong in his training and I need to think about this. Luckily he is smart and learns quickly - learns the good and the bad!

[J-Lu]

You have some really good advice here.

Not reacting is not an option!

Can you try stuff like raised cavaletti to get him to lift those legs? He can’t really “die” over exercises like this because he’ll get stuck, and you have to keep him going through it and out of it, but it’ll help him develop his stifles and ability to lift his legs. TBs seem to like these types of exercises. Also, jumping grids (even crossrails) to raise the energy and keep it going.

Seems like “forward” is the issue. I suggest, at some point, getting into the canter and getting into two-point in your dressage saddle and make your horse go FORWARD. As in gallop. Then with your seat, bring your horse back to a forward canter, and use the energy to work on the trot. I worked with a German trainer named Carla Smyader who was all about working FORWARD with horses to get them to use their backs and then bringing them back into a steady, energetic gait while still using themselves. The approach worked, and she produced many horses. It sounds like this type of forward riding can help engage your horse’s brain and body.

[cnm161]

J-Lu, do you remember AT?

I once tried the cavaletti method with him to try to get him to engage and use himself. He eyed my grid setup and then just plowed through it, leaving nothing but destruction in his path. Looked like a tornado went through, and he still didn’t exhibit much more energy.

What ended up working for him: I was in a lesson and was asking for lengthened canter. Nothing was working. So I tried one more time, and right when I asked again a giant crack of thunder boomed through the arena. AT thought it was the voice of God and gave me the best extended canter ever.

[Countrywood]

It’s good you are getting a more forward response…ask about a bigger trot re your seat in a separate post imo it will get lost here and more advanced people than myself can answer it better re how to get more expression or forward within a gait using seat/aids.

My own experience is that using a leg aid within a gait to ask for “more”, they need to learn to respond to it same way as they respond by going into a gait, which can take a bit of time, it can’t all happen overnight. Your horse is just 2 days ago starting to respond to light tap tap to go forward, take a week and just do that, reward him for responding so well. Then after that is more established, next week use the same method within a gait.

Back to your horse. Give it a week to reinforce what you are doing now. NExt week: he’s already trotting, now you want more expression/impulsion, you use leg aid, no response, then Tap tap tap till he gives you more forward or expression , stop tapping and ride him on, (can say good boy reward too when you feel he “gets it”). They are not robots and even once they “get it”, won’r respond precisely till it is ingrained can take months. You mention a hole in training perhaps impatience to get results instantly and then right away on to next rather than give horse time to absorb what he just learned.

Horse can only give a limited degree of “more” till he builds up the strength and power to deliver it.

[Countrywood]

I find that I have to work on MY posture and seat as well and that helps horse deliver more, if I am unbalanced or moving around or not centered it throws him off. Which is why dressage riders train with mirrors (not because we are so vain lol), it is to correct our posture /position as well as horse).

[Countrywood]

a lot of potential to do quite well in the dressage phase.

There are many on the board higher level than myself, but one tip I can pass along is to get better scores in dressage (assuming judged similar in eventing) Anyway, scoring well is not just more expression/impulsion in gaits but accuracy . Which is the BORING part but the part where riders can lose points.

Halt at X, means X, not 10 feet in front or behind. (ditto for gait transition at C etc). Halt square, not crooked. A round circle, not a lopsided oval. And so on. 15 meter circle, not 18 meters on one side and 12 meters on the other. (most dressage tests the patterns occur mirror fashion in each direction)

[BatataHead]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8620363]
It’s good you are getting a more forward response…ask about a bigger trot re your seat in a separate post imo it will get lost here and more advanced people than myself can answer it better re how to get more expression or forward within a gait using seat/aids.

My own experience is that using a leg aid within a gait to ask for “more”, they need to learn to respond to it same way as they respond by going into a gait, which can take a bit of time, it can’t all happen overnight. Your horse is just 2 days ago starting to respond to light tap tap to go forward, take a week and just do that, reward him for responding so well. Then after that is more established, next week use the same method within a gait.

Back to your horse. Give it a week to reinforce what you are doing now. NExt week: he’s already trotting, now you want more expression/impulsion, you use leg aid, no response, then Tap tap tap till he gives you more forward or expression , stop tapping and ride him on, (can say good boy reward too when you feel he “gets it”). They are not robots and even once they “get it”, won’r respond precisely till it is ingrained can take months. You mention a hole in training perhaps impatience to get results instantly and then right away on to next rather than give horse time to absorb what he just learned.

Horse can only give a limited degree of “more” till he builds up the strength and power to deliver it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I need to start a separate thread - sorry OP for starting to take this one over but got excited about the great discussion!! I’m happy that this is working. He’s a smart horse. I think I just need to really have a good, well-thought out plan and then make sure my execution is accurate and consistent.