MrCatch I try not to think that people are out to get each-other in this forum, but genuinely concerned about horse and human welfare. Disgusted is not what comes to mind, this is eventing, a sport where we get ribbons after running and jumping things - there are far more pressing matters in the world to be disgusted over. And as a listener to sports radio I have to say these Athletes have it easy criticism wise, not that it makes derogatory behavior OK. Perspective. However I wanted to add that Paddy the Caddy was an absolute favorite all weekend, what a fantastic jumper, gorgeous horse. And Erin was harsh on herself over the head of the lake. Such a nice pair, that is one horse that is so good at what it does, and does it all with ease.
2 Likes
“Scrutiny” is going to be nature of the sport, as it is with many others - there is no avoiding that. Just because a topic is brought up, doesn’t mean its a personal attack or that posters are lighting their torches as they type. There have been many riders and many scenarios that riders/situations were topics of discussion. Meredith Little Meredith and her horses recurring bloody mouth, Chris Talley and whether or not he should be competing at this level, Lainey Ashkers nasty fall and her ability to compete at the level, Boyds horse breaking his leg during XC, Ellen DH and her stormy daniels fiasco and also her horses soundness at events, the list could go on and on truly. Every single one of these people have been scrutinized and all these riders are supported by some, and at the same time disliked by some. All have had great results, all have had not so great results. I believe, at least my take on things, is that these discussions are had because people want to maintain a good overall image for the sport as a whole. I believe Erin had a great ride this weekend, and I too think she was overly harsh on herself about the head of the lake. There are things she has done as a rider I have loved in the past, and things I havent been a huge fan of. Doesnt give me an axe to throw. The hold in the jog this past weekend is just one of those flags that can be raised for discussion. An area that could potentially be modified for improvement, whether it be with the organizers or the rider themselves.
2 Likes
Then there are the horses that are sent to the box and their riders say they have “shivers” and that’s why they catch the vet’s eyes, but then they do the reinback in their dressage test with little to no complications…
Makes you think. :winkgrin:
2 Likes
My trainer’s 5* horse does have shivers! And I’ve never noticed it affecting his reinback.
ETA: He doesn’t get held much. I can remember one time.
1 Like
Nothing to add to this discussion other than my lesson horse has shivers and reins back quite well with no sign of anything wrong. In fact, once he is under saddle, you would never know.
2 Likes
Also have a horse (now retired) that has always had a lot of difficulty holding up hind legs. This is one of the symptoms of shivers, and the word shivers has been tossed out by vets and farriers with respect to the difficulty he has. However, he also never has had trouble backing up in hand or under saddle. Over the years I have come to believe he has some kind of old spine/si/pelvis injury that happened before we acquired him at age 4.
All the riders and issues you brought up here are fair topics of discussion. But your OP said that it was “absolutely poor horsemanship” for Erin to have presented her horse for the jog in the condition that he was in, and implied that the horse had a significant known soundness issue that she was attempting to cover it up and that made it unlikely he’d be able to complete without a major injury. I think that’s why some of us got the impression of an axe to grind.
If it had been presented as “it seems like her horses get held or spun a lot, is there something going on there?” it might have been better received.
7 Likes
Shivers is thrown around as a catch-all term these days, usually used to describe general hind end malaise or difficulty being shod that is not well understood, either by lack of diagnostics or, difficulty pinning symptoms… AFAIK there is no test for it besides visual/neuro examination and observing symptoms… but the number one symptom of shivers is difficulty backing up, and muscle tremors in the hindquarters. Other symptoms, not as common, include atrophy of hind quarters and difficulty holding hind feet up – but difficulty being shod is not a primary symptom of shivers. Difficulty backing up is.
If a horse “has shivers” but can back up (especially under saddle) with zero issues, it’s not shivers. It’s likely something, though - either SI disease, cervical arthritis, PSSM, EPM… Even suspensory injuries in the hind limb can cause difficulty shoeing/holding up the limb.
Shivers makes a very distinct gait during backing up. You can’t miss it.
Some good videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocX8mfdb8EM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4EkZlpi_ng
8 Likes
OK, thanks. Next time I am at Tufts Vet School Ill tell them they got the shivers diagnosis wrong. I read it on COTH.
2 Likes
Cute snark, but unnecessary. Why not do some research yourself about the disease? I’m sure that Tufts Vet School doesn’t know more about the disease than the people that have studied and examined it extensively, like Dr Valberg or Dr Crandell. Dr Valberg has done several studies on neuromuscular disorders, and has spoken at length about shivers. If you have some free time, anything of hers is worth reading or listening to.
Dr Valberg’s clinical examinations require that the horse must have difficulty walking backwards to be diagnosed with shivers. I would go with Dr Valberg’s expertise over Tuft’s(general practitioner).
YMMV.
4 Likes
That’s OK, Ill stick with Tufts, thanks.
Here is a link to a page from Michigan State vet school which is where Dr Valberg is based:
https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty-research/comparative-medical-genetics/valberg-laboratory/information-on-shivers#2.-what-are-the-signs-of-shivers?
Couple of relevant quotes:
"Shivers is straightforward to diagnose when signs are clear, however, milder cases are more difficult to diagnose. If your horse exhibits muscle quivering, difficulty in backing up, discomfort while being shod on hind hooves, or other signs of Shivers, have your horse evaluated by your veterinarian. "
“When discussing prognosis we are referring to a definition of shivers that involves difficulty backing up. Many athletic horses that have shivers can perform at a high level. However, there are other horses that begin to show signs at a young age (2 - 3 yrs-old) that are quite severe and these horses ability to perform is clearly impacted. The impact can be most notable in sports like dressage where fine motor control is important especially at upper levels and in driving where horses must be able to back into a hitch. In the short term (a few years) shivers may not impact performance. In the long term, (many years) half of shivers horses will show gradual progression from difficulty trimming hind hooves to difficulty cleaning the hind feet out to difficulty backing and then potentially hyperflexion intermittently at a walk.”
My summary from these bits would be that a horse may have early stage shivers and still be able to back up.
3 Likes
