I am looking at possibly purchasing a Thoroughbred mare to use for breeding. I need her to be papered (I assume - for Hanoverian or KWPN-NA inspection purposes???), but the seller does not have the papers, however the mare does have a tattoo.
Is it possible to obtain the mares papers if she is tattooed? And if so how difficult of a process is it?
Your best bet is to discuss this with the Jockey Club. They need a clear trail of ownership. This is first of all on the back of her papers, but it is also secondarily recorded electronically on the Jockey Club Interactive Registry site. There is a whole thing there about tattoos, etc. It’s a process and you may need to trace back her ownership until you find the person who has the papers and find out why the papers never went forward with the mare. It could be that there was a payment dispute and this will add a few wrinkles.
You are better off shying away from this mare and finding another one for breeding who has her clear line of transfers, records, and papers intact. Buying a mare without papers means you are accepting the seller’s hearsay on who the lineage is unless you have already received verification from the Jockey Club that the tattoo is linked to a definitive XYZ mare sired by Y stallion and out of X mare whose damsire was YY. I always strongly recommend to people looking to breed to only engage with sellers/horses who have the complete paperwork intact. It can be, depending on circumstances, sometimes very difficult to get missing papers reissued and there is no guarantee the Jockey Club will willingly do so as they are not required to. The onus is on the current owner to submit an affidavit as to WHY the papers went missing in the first place, and you have to prove this to the Jockey Club’s complete satisfaction before they will even consider it. There is good reason for their hesitation and due diligence - too many horses have papers go missing and if they just handed out duplicates like candy without some stern and strict questions, some horses could be mis-papered meaning wrong papers to wrong horse, and the like. Their first and foremost priority is to protect their studbook.
Registration papers and/or registration passports need to be handled like gold. They are mishandled far too much in horse sport. They are key elements in the precise identification of the horse. The tattoos, branding and microchips are secondary.
So my recommendation is to pass on this mare because she has a dubious pedigree (not proven because there are no papers to prove it) and a dubious selling history (no list of prior owners because the papers are missing). Papers with the horse also prove that she was not stolen some time in the distant past, not necessarily accusing her current owner, but perhaps somewhere deeper in the past. No papers = no LEGAL proof of anything.
The only way to get duplicate papers is for the person who had them last sign an affidavit stating how they were lost or destroyed. From there on the process is more or less the same as registering them the first time with pictures, markings and whorls. If you can’t get the affidavit, you can’t get the rest of it.
You can verify the pedigree with the tattoo however. You do not need papers to breed for a TB, many WB registries accept a copy of their pedigree and the tattoo.
Some of the bigger registries do require original papers. Hanoverian Verband does, for example, and when you take your non-Hanoverian mare to approval, they will take your papers with them back to Germany and mail them back to you with their stamp on them. Other registries will also require original papers or registry stamped/verified reissued duplicate papers. There may be some smaller registries who are happy enough with photocopies of pedigree.
So as we both have said, trace back the owners until you find who last had them. Some horses have been through a lot of owners which might make tracing ownership difficult. Which is why I suggested you may want to consider moving on to a different mare with all the required paperwork intact.
Honestly…it is NOT that hard to get new JC papers!!! Unlike QH, APHA where every owner must sign a transfer and send the papers to the registry for official re-marking of the papers… the JC is much more casual (IMO). Firstly if you have the tattoo # you can go on line with the JC and verify her identity. Secondly you can write a letter stating that you had the papers, but lost them or they were lost in the mail being sent to you, or the current owner of the horse misplaced them…whatever. Send the JC $150 or the current fee, 4 pictures of the horse and they will send you a new set of papers!! That’s it!! The JC is easy to work with. I bought a mare years ago…knowing that the woman who I got her from had gotten her in an ugly, sheriff’s sale and never got the papers given to her. I transferred the mare into my name on the JC web site and registered the one colt I got from her. About 5 years after I got her, I was selling her to another TB breeder who wanted the hard copy papers - despite the fact that she could have transferred her on line also. I just sent the JC a letter stating that the papers had “apparently been lost during a move we made to Ok.” and I was issued a new set.
If you really like the mare, I wouldn’t let the papers or lack of deter me. Good luck.
Of course that would mean lying on a signed affidavit. Not something I would be comfortable with.
Hey, this is the horse business! Why let a little thing like ethics stop you?
Kidding!
Without the papers, you have no idea what you’re dealing with. At worst, this mare could be stolen.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7372829]
Honestly…it is NOT that hard to get new JC papers!!! Unlike QH, APHA where every owner must sign a transfer and send the papers to the registry for official re-marking of the papers… the JC is much more casual (IMO). Firstly if you have the tattoo # you can go on line with the JC and verify her identity. Secondly you can write a letter stating that you had the papers, but lost them or they were lost in the mail being sent to you, or the current owner of the horse misplaced them…whatever. Send the JC $150 or the current fee, 4 pictures of the horse and they will send you a new set of papers!! That’s it!! The JC is easy to work with. I bought a mare years ago…knowing that the woman who I got her from had gotten her in an ugly, sheriff’s sale and never got the papers given to her. I transferred the mare into my name on the JC web site and registered the one colt I got from her. About 5 years after I got her, I was selling her to another TB breeder who wanted the hard copy papers - despite the fact that she could have transferred her on line also. I just sent the JC a letter stating that the papers had “apparently been lost during a move we made to Ok.” and I was issued a new set.
If you really like the mare, I wouldn’t let the papers or lack of deter me. Good luck.[/QUOTE]
This is not the way to do things. The Jockey Club is not more casual, they just expect you to be honest on a notarized affidavit. And one should be.
No, I had them research my geldings info from the fact that I had a partial tatoo and know his registered name and bloodlines … just needed verification so he can be shown in the Thoroughbred Celebration shows… they said that if the horse was sold without papers you would have to trace back and find the person who has the papers and get them through them… it is impossible to get a reissue of the papers this way (which I understand because someone could steal the horse make up a bill of sale and say they just need a copy of the papers)… For me this stinks because Ive owned the gelding for 12 years now… and I was just hoping to get his papers for sentimental value… but since we bought him tha tlong ago and the person I bought him from (my trainer) didnt get papers either… his breeder is no longer alive… so god knows where the papers went …
Wish there was a better way… maybe talk to the breed organizations and see if they woould accept some sort of pedigree/registration verification from the JC… maybe you could get that …
[QUOTE=Ysabel;7372350]
I am looking at possibly purchasing a Thoroughbred mare to use for breeding. I need her to be papered (I assume - for Hanoverian or KWPN-NA inspection purposes???), but the seller does not have the papers, however the mare does have a tattoo.
Is it possible to obtain the mares papers if she is tattooed? And if so how difficult of a process is it?[/QUOTE]
I have never had an issue getting papers for a TB, whether I was the one that lost the papers or not. Once the horse is in your ownership, and you have identified it by its tattoo, you can go online and transfer the horse into your name even if you don’t have the papers. I mean, you do legally own the horse, whether or not you have registration papers on it. Get a bill of sale with the horses name, tattoo number and markings on it.
If it is so easy to do this as going online and registering the horse in your name, how in the name of God do they keep just any Tom, Dick or Harry from doing this? What if the horse was stolen?
I am really serious about this because last year I got a TB mare who was stolen 4 years before. I identified her by her tattoo but also discovered some questionable notes in her paperwork (supposedly was “rescued”) from a bad owner. Turned out she was stolen but no one bothered to check this mare’s tattoo at the auction sale four years before, even the brand inspector whose job it was (I spoke to her replacement). I returned her of course.
It is that easy to change the horse into your name online because it doesn’t mean anything. The Jockey Club doesn’t care if Satan owns the horse as long as the horse was properly registered and the fees paid. I could put Zenyatta into my name right this minute but that doesn’t mean they are going to hand her over to me.
But those who said they identified the horse’s tattoo, sent in photos and identifying marks, and then wrote a letter lying about the paperwork and had the papers successfully transferred to them?! Of course Zenyatta would not be transferred but an unknown horse?
Yeah that is possible.
Certain registries will work with the JC to accept a mare of known pedigree without her papers. I do find it absolutely silly that they are so tight about reissue of lost papers but they will allow breeding for JC foals without them. I knew a nice mare bought without papers that had several TB foals. In her later years someone wanted to borrow her to breed an appendix QH but it was impossible because they wanted a hard copy of her papers.
Not sure which, because I get publications from both, but I remember an article a while back (a year or more) from either BWP or AHHA that talked about working with mare owners with lost JC papers. I tend to think it was probably BWP but I can’t say which for sure.
There was someone without papers on her TB at the one and only Oldenburg inspection that I participated in. They accepted the pedigree based upon the tattoo but placed her in the lowest book I believe. The foal got branded.
You can get them put into the lower book of some registries but that is the same as any other horse with and undocumented pedigree.
I’m not an expert on the JC as I’ve always gotten the papers on TB mares who I intended to use for both riding and breeding. But I did think there were different types of papers you could get from the JC. One type is more the proof of pedigree that would be needed for the WB registries. You couldn’t race a mare with these “papers”. But the harder papers to get re-issued would be her full papers that if you have those, she can still be raced and offspring registered with the JC and they are proof of ownership. I could be totally wrong…but that is what I was told. But all you need for most of the registries is proof of her pedigree.
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7372829]
Honestly…it is NOT that hard to get new JC papers!!! Unlike QH, APHA where every owner must sign a transfer and send the papers to the registry for official re-marking of the papers… the JC is much more casual (IMO). Firstly if you have the tattoo # you can go on line with the JC and verify her identity. Secondly you can write a letter stating that you had the papers, but lost them or they were lost in the mail being sent to you, or the current owner of the horse misplaced them…whatever. Send the JC $150 or the current fee, 4 pictures of the horse and they will send you a new set of papers!! That’s it!! The JC is easy to work with. I bought a mare years ago…knowing that the woman who I got her from had gotten her in an ugly, sheriff’s sale and never got the papers given to her. I transferred the mare into my name on the JC web site and registered the one colt I got from her. About 5 years after I got her, I was selling her to another TB breeder who wanted the hard copy papers - despite the fact that she could have transferred her on line also. I just sent the JC a letter stating that the papers had “apparently been lost during a move we made to Ok.” and I was issued a new set.
If you really like the mare, I wouldn’t let the papers or lack of deter me. Good luck.[/QUOTE]
This is a public forum. Lying on a notarized affidavit is illegal and bad business practice.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7373575]
If it is so easy to do this as going online and registering the horse in your name, how in the name of God do they keep just any Tom, Dick or Harry from doing this? What if the horse was stolen?
I am really serious about this because last year I got a TB mare who was stolen 4 years before. I identified her by her tattoo but also discovered some questionable notes in her paperwork (supposedly was “rescued”) from a bad owner…[/QUOTE]
Calamber we discovered the exact same thing when doing tattoo research on a mare we bought.
Papers “were kinda” available - but quickly learned they were in boxes with several hundred others. Did a bit of tattoo search, markings matched, happened to decide to post her online and a gal contacted asking if we “really” owned her - and put us in contact with the owner she had been stolen from (long twisted story), he was happy she was in a safe home and offered to do the necessary paperwork if we would pay the Jockey Club fee to replace the paper.
Then again got a shock as heck one time (different mare) - papers matched the markings, tattoo wasn’t quite readable. Bred the mare - DNA was spot on for the sire, but the mare didn’t match the foal based on the listed name wow. NOW THAT took a bit of work and a VERY understanding Registrar at the Jockey Club to work that one out, did finally get a close enough match on the tattoo/markings they reran the DNA and confirmed the name matched for the foal we were registering. Talk about a run-around to find out who a horse was.
All that to say - if you like the mare, get the papers, or find out who had possession of them last (and the Jockey Club will not just hand out the last known owner’s name). Otherwise pass on her and keep looking for a mare with papers available.
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